## 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
GPR-A duplicate2
167
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:00 am

### Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

ME4ME wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 11:29 am
WaikeCU wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 11:28 am
If 1kg is worth 0.3s a lap and if the Merc really is 6kg overweight? Then that means it's actually running around 1.8s off pace?
Normally 10kg -> 0.3 sec/lap.
Let's do some quick calculation here. I am using Spanish GP stats here.
Total Laps - 66
Fuel Carried - 100 Kgs

Fuel/Lap - 1.5 Kgs

Pole lap - 1m19.149
Approximate fuel carried while performing the pole - 4 Kgs (2 Kg for Last flier + 1 kg for FIA inspection + 1 Kg for getting back to pits).
*Assuming 2 Kgs/lap for the sheer speed (ultimate quali mode for the PU, should be more thirsty).
*I am assuming if it takes 1.5 Kgs for a full blown lap race lap, it should take far less for warm up and and even less while getting back to pits after pole (1 kg each).

Second lap of the Race (excluding start lap) - 1m26.5xx. So the difference between a car lapping on 4 Kgs to a car carrying 100 Kgs is around 7 to 7.5 seconds.

So, the calculation is, 10 Kg of the fuel is around 0.7 - 0.75 seconds. Specifically for Circuit-de-Catalunya.

CBeck113
CBeck113
104
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:43 pm

### Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

GPR-A wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 12:56 pm
ME4ME wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 11:29 am
WaikeCU wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 11:28 am
If 1kg is worth 0.3s a lap and if the Merc really is 6kg overweight? Then that means it's actually running around 1.8s off pace?
Normally 10kg -> 0.3 sec/lap.
Let's do some quick calculation here. I am using Spanish GP stats here.
Total Laps - 66
Fuel Carried - 100 Kgs

Fuel/Lap - 1.5 Kgs

Pole lap - 1m19.149
Approximate fuel carried while performing the pole - 4 Kgs (2 Kg for Last flier + 1 kg for FIA inspection + 1 Kg for getting back to pits).
*Assuming 2 Kgs/lap for the sheer speed (ultimate quali mode for the PU, should be more thirsty).
*I am assuming if it takes 1.5 Kgs for a full blown lap race lap, it should take far less for warm up and and even less while getting back to pits after pole (1 kg each).

Second lap of the Race (excluding start lap) - 1m26.5xx. So the difference between a car lapping on 4 Kgs to a car carrying 100 Kgs is around 7 to 7.5 seconds.

So, the calculation is, 10 Kg of the fuel is around 0.7 - 0.75 seconds. Specifically for Circuit-de-Catalunya.
Except for the fact that no car had fresh tires and an empty tank during the race, so I'd use the fastest race lap and not the quali lap for the comparison.

*Edit - fingerdyslexia
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony!” Monty Python and the Holy Grail

Big Mangalhit
63
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:39 pm

### Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

GPR-A wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 12:56 pm
ME4ME wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 11:29 am
WaikeCU wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 11:28 am
If 1kg is worth 0.3s a lap and if the Merc really is 6kg overweight? Then that means it's actually running around 1.8s off pace?
Normally 10kg -> 0.3 sec/lap.
Let's do some quick calculation here. I am using Spanish GP stats here.
Total Laps - 66
Fuel Carried - 100 Kgs

Fuel/Lap - 1.5 Kgs

Pole lap - 1m19.149
Approximate fuel carried while performing the pole - 4 Kgs (2 Kg for Last flier + 1 kg for FIA inspection + 1 Kg for getting back to pits).
*Assuming 2 Kgs/lap for the sheer speed (ultimate quali mode for the PU, should be more thirsty).
*I am assuming if it takes 1.5 Kgs for a full blown lap race lap, it should take far less for warm up and and even less while getting back to pits after pole (1 kg each).

Second lap of the Race (excluding start lap) - 1m26.5xx. So the difference between a car lapping on 4 Kgs to a car carrying 100 Kgs is around 7 to 7.5 seconds.

So, the calculation is, 10 Kg of the fuel is around 0.7 - 0.75 seconds. Specifically for Circuit-de-Catalunya.
Except that the quali is made in a totally different mode. In quali you can start with batteries at 100% and empty them all and have open waste gates. In the race you will have to go in sustained mode so that alone is worth some time. Plus has you said you don't care about the fuel usage in quali as long as you don't exceed the fuel flow limit. In race you need to save a bit more.

Both those things are worth quite some time. There is a better calculation of fuel (weight) influence in F1metrics

https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2017/03 ... -analysis/
I was able to estimate an average lap-time cost of 0.054 seconds per extra lap of fuel at Barcelona.
If you use your estimate of 1,5kg of fuel per lap then 10kg=0,36s closer to Rosberg's value

ME4ME
180
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:37 pm

### Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

GPR-A wrote:
Tue May 16, 2017 12:56 pm
Pole lap - 1m19.149
Approximate fuel carried while performing the pole - 4 Kgs (2 Kg for Last flier + 1 kg for FIA inspection + 1 Kg for getting back to pits).
Don't forget the 2L of oil

Bill_Kar
Bill_Kar
5
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:38 am

### Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

Should this FP2 be worrying at all or what?

Vasconia
40
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:45 am
Location: Basque Country

### Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

Bill_Kar wrote:
Thu May 25, 2017 7:42 pm
Should this FP2 be worrying at all or what?
They can go back to FP1´s set up and try to improve it. If those problems to make the tyres work we could see another Singapur 2015.

Bill_Kar
Bill_Kar
5
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:38 am

### Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

Bottas being that close is a good sign overall.I would never expect him to pull such a good lap, shame he lost by centimeters again against VET.
Second race for Hamilton with bad set-up, overcooking-overheating and off the pace.
If Vettel continues problem-free, Hamilton got a mountain to climb.

ringo
236
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

### Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

That is true. Hamilton does however has section in the calendar with circuits that he will be super strong at barring any technical issues. Canada, UK, Belgium, Monza, so i think it will come back to Lewis at some point.

Mercedes seems to have street circuit setup issues with Hamilton. They need to analyse that. It may be the differential, the way how he drives, or even the suspension system itself with the hydraulics.
For Sure!!

Schuttelberg
72
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:02 am

### Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

Bill_Kar wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 3:42 pm
Bottas being that close is a good sign overall.I would never expect him to pull such a good lap, shame he lost by centimeters again against VET.
Second race for Hamilton with bad set-up, overcooking-overheating and off the pace.
If Vettel continues problem-free, Hamilton got a mountain to climb.
To be very honest, I find such posts very unfair. I don't know what you mean and may be it's my error in judgement but Lewis Hamilton is part of the problem. (bad set up, tyre temps)

The last 3 street circuit events, Hamilton's team mates have out qualified him and twice put it on pole. Yesterday, Valtteri nearly did as well. 2 of those races resulted in wins and we're yet to find out today's result.

Vettel is running "trouble free" because he's worked hard for it. He had a lot of engine trouble in Spain and loss of track time but he was able to pull his socks up and compete. I'm not saying drivers can control engine failures but a driver of the class and calibre of Hamilton is expected to drive around problems like set up, tyres etc. His team mate who is regarded quite a few levels below certainly is.

I will say it again- Ever since winning the 2015 title, Lewis has these weird weekends where he's nowhere. He would have won the title without Malaysia 2016 but that was against Rosberg. He's competing against an arguably stiffer competition and with the Ferrari an equal to the Mercedes this year, the margin for error is a lot less.

I've been the first to praise Lewis and defend him here in 2016, but so far this year he's not driving at his best and Seb has simply been better.
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

GPR-A duplicate2
167
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:00 am

### Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

Schuttelberg wrote:
Sun May 28, 2017 9:19 am
Bill_Kar wrote:
Sat May 27, 2017 3:42 pm
Bottas being that close is a good sign overall.I would never expect him to pull such a good lap, shame he lost by centimeters again against VET.
Second race for Hamilton with bad set-up, overcooking-overheating and off the pace.
If Vettel continues problem-free, Hamilton got a mountain to climb.
To be very honest, I find such posts very unfair. I don't know what you mean and may be it's my error in judgement but Lewis Hamilton is part of the problem. (bad set up, tyre temps)

The last 3 street circuit events, Hamilton's team mates have out qualified him and twice put it on pole. Yesterday, Valtteri nearly did as well. 2 of those races resulted in wins and we're yet to find out today's result.

Vettel is running "trouble free" because he's worked hard for it. He had a lot of engine trouble in Spain and loss of track time but he was able to pull his socks up and compete. I'm not saying drivers can control engine failures but a driver of the class and calibre of Hamilton is expected to drive around problems like set up, tyres etc. His team mate who is regarded quite a few levels below certainly is.

I will say it again- Ever since winning the 2015 title, Lewis has these weird weekends where he's nowhere. He would have won the title without Malaysia 2016 but that was against Rosberg. He's competing against an arguably stiffer competition and with the Ferrari an equal to the Mercedes this year, the margin for error is a lot less.

I've been the first to praise Lewis and defend him here in 2016, but so far this year he's not driving at his best and Seb has simply been better.
I couldn't agree more. This year specifically, I have doubts over Hamilton's general fitness levels, both mental and physical. He seems to struggle and unable to cope with difficulties when they hit him in FP2 (Singapore and Baku 2016 and here in Monaco this year) after having a great FP1.

It is also baffling that his side of the team doesn't seem to get an understanding of Hamilton's twitchy nerves and couldn't point out the problem areas that he struggles with.

If Hamilton is any serious about his championship prospects, he need to learn (or relearn) to adapt and perform like a champ in difficult conditions, otherwise he would have to regret these situations where he let himself down.

On a side note, this is why Alonso stands out from Hamilton and Vettel. Even in the most difficult circumstances, when the car is simply going right when it is steered left, he still manages to get the best out of the car, whereas Vettel (whole of last year) and Hamilton (on occasions) couldn't handle an UNPERFECT car.

Bill_Kar
Bill_Kar
5
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:38 am

### Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

Vettel deserves this championship if he continues running in this form.And of course he worked very hard, he is known about working really hard.I'm not saying Vettel's problem-free season is luck; nor I'm saying Hamilton's woes are bad luck.I'm just pointing out the facts.Him who has less problems will win the championship and this is it.

marmer
marmer
34
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:48 am

### Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

In regards to hamilton s fitness. It seems strange that the season after he gets rid of his personal trainer he always seems out of breath and stressed in the car.
He said he wanted to challenge himself by doing the fitness on his own. Blaming it on having to work hard to beat vettel but seb never seems like he has worked hard and he is not exactly jenson button when it comes to fitness

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ringo
236
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

### Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

You are all over analyzing the situation. These cars are immensely complicated machines, i don't think hamilton could have done much; similar to Baku the issue is with the car. The team have stated they found the problem on the car in monaco after qualifying; but cannot fix it because of parc ferme rules. I would like to hear what the issue is.
Notwithstanding, i do agree that lewis and mercedes need to get serious if they want to win this championship.
Even with Kimi's questionable work ethic, the ferrari is still formidable.
For Sure!!

sprint car76
sprint car76
2
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:33 pm