2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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turbof1
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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GPR-A wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:22 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:05 pm
If Vettel and co. would not have collided in Singapore and if those reliability gremlins didn't come over in Malaysia or Japan who knows what would have happened?
Singapore was no brainer for Vettelt to win. Most likely Malaysia too. But Japan wasn't the case. If what happened in the end was what has deceived people to believe Vettel would have challenged Hamilton, then people need to pay better attention for underlying realities.

In the aftermath of his championship rival getting a mechanical DNF, there was hardly an ounce of doubt that Hamilton was in ultra conservative mode in the race from the lap 1 to save his PU for the remainder of the season. Back markers and slight difficulty in switching on the Soft Tyres, made look like Verstappen was challenging Hamilton. Which in turn, led people to believe that, had Vettel been in the race, he would have surely, probably, would have won ahead of Hamilton. Which would be far from the fact of the matter.
We would definitely have had a champion fight on our hands, I think you can agree on that. I do think Vettel would have been able to put up a fight against Hamilton in Japan, but that's not Schuttelberg's point. His point is that if Vettel did not have his technical gremlins and that accident, things would probably be very tense right now.

Note that building a championship winning car also means getting it across the finish line. Mercedes paid that price last year with Hamilton, now Ferrari does it too.
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hemichromis
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Well for me Bottas has proven that Rosberg was a deserving champion.

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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:05 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:25 pm
gdogg371 wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:10 pm
Having two drivers taking points off each other in the same team is only not an issue when you have unquestionably the best car. Mclaren were able to accommodate Prost and Senna on this basis in 1988 and 1989, but possibly in 1990 and most definitely in 1991 that line up would have cost them the driver's title. Same with Mclaren in 2007. With a second string team mate partnering Alonso or Hamilton, the lead driver would have taken the title instead of Raikkonen. In fairness that was probably the plan bringing the rookie Hamilton in, but I don't think anyone was expecting him to as good as he was in his first year.

Hamilton-Rosberg again this year would have won Mercedes the constructor's title by a wider margin, but given Vettel a fifth driver's title. Hamilton was pretty unlucky last year for a variety of reasons and 2016 will most definitely have been added to 2007 as one that got away from him...
This is a very good point. Without an amazing amount of bad luck he would have no doubt won in 2016 as well and without a gearbox glitch at the start of the last race in 2007 he could very easily of won Raikkonen's title instead too.
If Vettel and co. would not have collided in Singapore and if those reliability gremlins didn't come over in Malaysia or Japan who knows what would have happened?

I think that's why we go racing. Everything looks in a certain manner on paper, but we go to the track to see if it really is that way. I think that's what brings out the excitement in us fans. It is these 'iffy' moments that make the good one's really sweet.

I think from a personal point of view, I would have loved to see Sebastian take the WDC this year. But, Lewis winning it doesn't make me bitter/sour. I think he deserves it. He's been in PlayStation mode after the summer break. I just find the Mercedes PR tirade absolutely unbearable. The funny thing is, I'm not even a Hamilton supporter. Hell, if you cast aside the massive respect I have for his abilities I might even dislike him. I think I was actually more disappointed last year when Hamilton didn't win and Rosberg did.
I agree. He could have 6 but he could also have 2.

As for the Mercedes PR they are not in their own Look at Renault when the heat started over their new FIA employee. They quickly saw it was becoming a PR disaster and quickly extended the supposed gardening leave (I don't buy there will be no info shared behind closed doors). Big companies play the game of maximising PR.

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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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turbof1 wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:31 pm
We would definitely have had a champion fight on our hands, I think you can agree on that. I do think Vettel would have been able to put up a fight against Hamilton in Japan, but that's not Schuttelberg's point. His point is that if Vettel did not have his technical gremlins and that accident, things would probably be very tense right now.

Note that building a championship winning car also means getting it across the finish line. Mercedes paid that price last year with Hamilton, now Ferrari does it too.
I would ask what price did Mercedes pay last year? They won both championships. The price they did pay was the backlash from the fans given their heavy tone deaf approach to driver management. On more than one occasion Mercedes chose to make the surface look calm when it was obvious to all that there was a storm behind closed doors. The biggest failing of Mercedes in 2016 was in the last race, Abu Dhabi asking Lewis to step up his pace or let Rosberg by.

The other elephant in the room that some member choose to ignore is that with the exception of 2008 he's never had a driver that wasn't in direct competition with him for a title. 2007 & 2016 are the obvious ones, but a Ferrari in the same situation as McLaren were in 2012 would have handed their lead driver a championship.
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gdogg371
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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I definitely under estimated Rosberg throughout his whole career. He's no legend of the sport, but he was certainly quick enough to cause Lewis problems if he wasn't at it during a race weekend.

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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:00 pm
digitalrurouni wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:33 pm
I highly doubt Mercedes will want Lewis to slow down to give Valtteri a chance. I think Valtteri would not take to that kindly and with Lewis being on a frankly phenomenal driving form, it makes no sense to take him out of it. Records are falling and it would be best to not get in the way of a driver who is on the top of his game. I personally think after Hamilton won the 2015 championship and lost the pressure his performance slumped and Rosberg destroyed him in the subsequent races and carried on that form to next year. I think Hamilton will not want that at all to repeat with Valtteri.
In my opinion, that's a very result oriented opinion. I think there's no way to prove that Hamilton was 'distracted' after winning the 2015 title. It's just one of the internet's assumptions.

Secondly, it's amazing how people don't see the number of reliability problems Hamilton had in 2016 compared to the bullet proof reliability of Rosberg.

Lastly, the engineering POV aside, whatever happens in the championship when Lewis wins it is very insignificant. Once the scores are reset they all start from 0 next year and if Hamilton has his brain in gear, Bottas won't have a hope in hell of beating him. People keep saying Bottas is a solid driver in the second car but having observed his Williams years and now this first Mercedes year I keep insisting that he's an extremely inconsistent driver. On some days, he will do a solid job (60-80%) times depending on his form and on other days he will be nowhere like he is now and was at Williams.

As for the comparison between Bottas, Rosberg and Hamilton? Rosberg is not in Hamilton's class and Bottas is not in Rosberg's. People like to use numbers to turn and twist the real story but this is the truth.
I do not disagree with you about the mechanical woes that hit Hamilton. But I do think Hamilton was distracted all year. Didn't he break up permanently with Nicole? He also could not get his launches right as well if memory serves me right.

So going back through the results I see Rosberg won the 2015 Mexico, Brazil, Abu Dhabi races. Roll on 2016 he won Australia, Bahrain, China and Russia. Then they both collided in Spain. So that's what 7 races that Rosberg won back to back over him. That's kind of unprecedented. I am probably in the wrong but feel free to correct me in those 7 races which ones affected Hamilton with respect to mechanical issues?

Also probably more paparazzi-like than anything but I seem to recall he crashed his Pagani 760LH in Monaco too at that time and was jet setting around quite a lot. You are right my opinion is more result oriented but unless Hamilton himself says he was not distracted or he let up on the gas in terms of performances I am not convinced! I think that plus the mechanical woes got to him. I am not downplaying his mechanical issues one bit but saying that is solely the reason for his defeat that year is not true - in my opinion of course.

And I always rated Rosberg highly but I also disliked his 'cheat' methods he employed during qualifying and racing not to mention the driver coaching etc over the radio. To my mind he is the most difficult teammate Hamilton ever faced.

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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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TAG wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:50 pm

The other elephant in the room that some member choose to ignore is that with the exception of 2008 he's never had a driver that wasn't in direct competition with him for a title. 2007 & 2016 are the obvious ones, but a Ferrari in the same situation as McLaren were in 2012 would have handed their lead driver a championship.
Indeed so. If Mercedes had been like Ferrari were with Michael, Lewis would be closing in on Michael's wins total (potentially the 20 wins that went to Rosberg + a couple where they collided) as well his own fifth title. As for poles, he'd have blown through the record a year or more ago.
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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digitalrurouni wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:58 pm
I do not disagree with you about the mechanical woes that hit Hamilton. But I do think Hamilton was distracted all year. Didn't he break up permanently with Nicole? He also could not get his launches right as well if memory serves me right.
Kimi Raikkonen got divorced in 2014 after being married for 10 years, but that was just a excuse for some journalists and fans of other drivers, while Hamilton's on and off relationship with Nicole and how it had a effect on his performance is a genuine reason.
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:00 pm
As for the comparison between Bottas, Rosberg and Hamilton? Rosberg is not in Hamilton's class and Bottas is not in Rosberg's. People like to use numbers to turn and twist the real story but this is the truth.
A few critical points to be considered before talking about Rosberg's performances.
1. One key element that need to be remembered, while talking about Rosberg's performances, is that, W05-W07 cars were so far ahead of the rest of the field that, even on a worst day, Rosberg could still qualify second (at times the gap was almost half a second between him and Lewis) and still score a second place in the race.
2. While Lewis did let himself down by not fixing his starts in 2016, IT WAS ONLY Rosberg who was there to take advantage of Lewis' bad starts from pole position! There was no one else starting from Second.
3. Whenever Lewis had a failure, there was only Rosberg to take advantage of it! Last year, I had compiled a sheet of all their qualifying performances from 2014-2016 and the average difference in qualifying was around 3 tenths.

This year, Vettel was behind Lewis by aroud 2 tenths on so many qualifyings. I am quite certain that, the way Nico struggled for qualifying in 2015 with W06 being slightly tricker than W05, he would have certainly struggled far more in qualifying with W08. The result, Vettel would have been consistently there to take advantage of any errors that Lewis would have been committing AND NOT Rosberg!

So, it becomes unfair to then compare Bottas' performances from current context to Rosberg's SAFE context of the past. Bottas' year has been of two halves, clearly. In the first half, he did a very good job. Stayed close behind Lewis in qualifying, got two poles and two wins. When Lewis struggled in Russia, Monaco and Austria, it was Bottas who did extremely well. Something gone away from him post summer break. It is difficult to imagine how Rosberg would have fared in the first half, with Ferrari being that competitive, W08 struggling and Vettel being just 2 tenths behind Lewis in qualifying.

I doubt if Rosberg would have had the talent to defend the race win, the way Bottas did in Russia and Austria. He cracked so many times when attacked from Lewis and we have seen how messy Rosberg has been in wheel to wheel battles. It's just a pity that we couldn't see him this year, in the DIVA!

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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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GPR-A wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:17 pm
Schuttelberg wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:00 pm
As for the comparison between Bottas, Rosberg and Hamilton? Rosberg is not in Hamilton's class and Bottas is not in Rosberg's. People like to use numbers to turn and twist the real story but this is the truth.
A few critical points to be considered before talking about Rosberg's performances.
1. One key element that need to be remembered, while talking about Rosberg's performances, is that, W05-W07 cars were so far ahead of the rest of the field that, even on a worst day, Rosberg could still qualify second (at times the gap was almost half a second between him and Lewis) and still score a second place in the race.
2. While Lewis did let himself down by not fixing his starts in 2016, IT WAS ONLY Rosberg who was there to take advantage of Lewis' bad starts from pole position! There was no one else starting from Second.
3. Whenever Lewis had a failure, there was only Rosberg to take advantage of it! Last year, I had compiled a sheet of all their qualifying performances from 2014-2016 and the average difference in qualifying was around 3 tenths.

This year, Vettel was behind Lewis by aroud 2 tenths on so many qualifyings. I am quite certain that, the way Nico struggled for qualifying in 2015 with W06 being slightly tricker than W05, he would have certainly struggled far more in qualifying with W08. The result, Vettel would have been consistently there to take advantage of any errors that Lewis would have been committing AND NOT Rosberg!

So, it becomes unfair to then compare Bottas' performances from current context to Rosberg's SAFE context of the past. Bottas' year has been of two halves, clearly. In the first half, he did a very good job. Stayed close behind Lewis in qualifying, got two poles and two wins. When Lewis struggled in Russia, Monaco and Austria, it was Bottas who did extremely well. Something gone away from him post summer break. It is difficult to imagine how Rosberg would have fared in the first half, with Ferrari being that competitive, W08 struggling and Vettel being just 2 tenths behind Lewis in qualifying.

I doubt if Rosberg would have had the talent to defend the race win, the way Bottas did in Russia and Austria. He cracked so many times when attacked from Lewis and we have seen how messy Rosberg has been in wheel to wheel battles. It's just a pity that we couldn't see him this year, in the DIVA!
Agree 100%
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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All the above is assuming the Ferrari had competitive pace back then. Then yeah, but Rosberg still wouldn't look as wanting as Bottas does now.
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:17 pm

What a pile of rubbish!

Rosberg was beating a certain Michael Schumacher in the years preceding to his Hamilton rivalry. Even in the 2010-13 years when the Merc wasn't the greatest he got podiums, poles and wins. Before that, in his Williams years he absolutely smashed Nakajima as his team mate.

We can sit here all day and discuss the CV's of Bottas and Rosberg and Rosberg will always trump that of Bottas. Rosberg's issue with Hamilton was not speed. It was race craft and psychological warfare. Mind you, Hamilton was better speed wise as well, it was just that Rosberg was not as far off as any of his other team mates (Alonso included). Rosberg seemed to have a heart attack when he saw Hamilton is his mirrors, something Bottas hasn't experienced in a championship duel with Hamilton which he probably never will because he simply doesn't have the speed.

I don't remember Rosberg ever being dismantled by Hamilton to the tune of 0.5-0.7 seconds for a series of races. And your argument about Bottas getting better is null. He's been in F1 forever now.
I agree with you. Rosberg has been top drawer from the williams days. watching him closely, it would be clear he was very fast and consistent from then. Rosberg is better than Bottas yes; but remember Bottas is still young and by the time Nico was teaming with Lewis, Nico was race hardened by Michael, and had loads of experience from his williams days. Bottas didn't go through such high level of competition before now. So i agree Nico is very good, but iwouldn't say Bottas is not good or doesn't do a few things better than Nico.
Bottas is better wheel to wheel and can sustain a fight without falling apart. I would give him that. Nico is quicker, more relentless and more ruthless and more inteligent off the track. But i think in 2 or 3 years Bottas will be equal if not better.

On your last sentence. Hamilton has put half a second into nico's skin quite a few times in their time together. Nico recieved his tonkings, but not as often as Bottas. I would chalk that up to experience again.
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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TAG wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:50 pm
turbof1 wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:31 pm
We would definitely have had a champion fight on our hands, I think you can agree on that. I do think Vettel would have been able to put up a fight against Hamilton in Japan, but that's not Schuttelberg's point. His point is that if Vettel did not have his technical gremlins and that accident, things would probably be very tense right now.

Note that building a championship winning car also means getting it across the finish line. Mercedes paid that price last year with Hamilton, now Ferrari does it too.
I would ask what price did Mercedes pay last year?
Something they weight heavily on: lost points, and marketing-wise not being a field day. I agree in terms of the WCC it was not detrimental, but it influenced the outcome of the WDC, which I think they'd rather not see decided by mechanical failures.

The thing is, they went through that phase and the associated pain that comes with it. They used that for this year, with a very robust PU. Ferrari will have to learn from it as well for next year, although they are paying a bigger price for it.
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Some good promotional AMG Mercedes F1 fun from the weekend.

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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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I have been quoted a fair amount, so I can't respond to every detail to the hilt but I'll give a jist of my feelings-

In my opinion and because F1 is such a paradox that you can't compare two different events in detail let alone two different years, everything we discuss here are mainly our perception of the situation. Facts could be vastly different but there's no way to prove it.

1) I have followed Hamilton, Rosberg and Bottas from the very beginning being the old hag that I am now and these are the things I've observed-

a) Hamilton- Probably, a once in a generation athlete in a country. I genuinely find all these discussions about Nicole, his party lifestyle etc. etc. extremely petty. Let's just recall once that Hamilton didn't exactly have all the luxury and resources to get to where he has. It took an eye for talent matched with his hunger, determination and obviously raw natural talent for him to be what he is and achieve what he has. When you've been through all that as an individual, everything including your personal life is second nature. What I mean is that the guy in the car is just not the same person outside of it. Once the visor goes down, all these champions are just that- champions! They might be vulnerable and weak in one dimension, but that space is something they literally own. True, there are other predators but they're just cut from a piece of cloth very very few are. People often criticise Lewis for his mental frailty but I have myself a nice chuckle when they do. You simply don't get to where he has without being in total control of your mind.
My criticism of Lewis is that he sometimes relaxes a bit too early in the game. 2015 end was a combination of a desperate Rosberg and a 'casual' Hamilton. You see what he's done after the summer break and it's just insane. The other criticism I have of him is his desperate need to act like a victim and over dramatise things. If you ask me to directly compare him to Sebastian, I think Lewis has more natural elegance and racing instinct while Sebastian is extremely technical and devoted. People will shrug their shoulders off his last 9 races from 2013 and say 'hey he had the tools for it' but he had the motivation and commitment to go out there and do his job. Lewis sometimes lacks this hunger/focus or whatever you want to call it. Sebastian is also someone that doesn't need a push. I always felt in my heart that Lewis doesn't rate Nico. He does Sebastian. You could visually see the respect before Baku where Vettel decided to play the spoilt child again but in my heart I feel this push from Sebastian is like a second wing Lewis needed. He just didn't get that from Nico. All in all, in my opinion top 5 of all time with ease and I won't be surprised if I call him the best ever by the time he hangs up his helmet. Very obnoxious bloke though!

Again, this is my opinion.

b) Rosberg- Fast, clean and always a gentleman. I always felt Rosberg would end up as one of the best, if not the best number 2 ever. He always had the speed to put up flawless weekends but never seemed to come across as the bloke to 'wow' the fans. Something, Lewis can do in his sleep. I also feel Nico was amazingly consistent. He never ever seemed comfortable in challenging conditions, even against a 42 year old spent Michael Schumacher. But, in the right car with a set up to his liking he was as good as anyone. I think he was clumsy wheel to wheel and while there was a lot of bragging about his 'mental strength' in 2016, he only won because of Hamilton's misfortune. I think on a day where you had a car and needed a driver to do a professional job at a decent salary, Rosberg was a really good bet. I also found him extremely professional and while he dialled the controversy factor up in his rivalry with Hamilton, they still wracked up wins, titles and poles. I can bet whatever you want that the often touted 3 best drivers of this era (Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso) in any combination of pairing would not have made it past the second year. Was he someone who could make a difference as a driver in challenging conditions against the best drivers in the world? No.

c) Bottas- I hear this murmur that Rosberg never had competition from Vettel/Ricciardo/Verstappen but Bottas does. To some extent that's true. But the difference is not that vast. If you see the gaps by which Hamilton is hammering Bottas, it's not that different to Vettel and Raikkonen. Also, he has been very lucky on lap 1 to have caused a couple of incidents and been the culprit and got away with it. Even if you recall his Williams years, there were weekends he was nowhere. Absolutely nowhere. And this was against a Felipe Massa who let's face it should not have been in F1 since 2014. Compare that with Rosberg's years in the Mercedes against Schumacher. In fact, I though Kubica and Rosberg were outstanding in that 2009-2010 phase. I've just not seen anything from Bottas. Is he a driver that will do a solid job in a good car for you? (80% of the times) Is he someone who will consistently challenge Hamilton like Rosberg? NO! Raikkonen has had a lot of bad luck in comparison to Bottas this year and dare I say, if Ferrari had a Vettel/Ricciardo or Verstappen pairing with those 2/3 reliability issues fixed, Mercedes would not have been WCC.

Just my opinion.
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