2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Schuttelberg
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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GPR-A wrote:
Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:18 pm
Just couldn't stop reading this over and over again and then posting here. =D> Sad, I couldn't make this my signature due to the length of the characters. :(

https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature/77 ... lewis-head
F1Racing: Just to elaborate on the subject of proving yourself, how tough was it to move into Mercedes, which was basically Michael Schumacher's team when he made his comeback?

Nico Rosberg: Yeah, it made for some difficult moments of course, because he comes in and it's actually God walking through the door. Really. Every time he walked in, all the engineers - metaphorically speaking - stopped what they were doing and admired him.

https://24smi.org/public/media/celebrit ... umaher.jpg
Fixed that for you. :)
"Sebastian there's very, you're a member of a very select few.. Stewart, Lauda, Piquet, Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio.. VETTEL!"

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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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What is Jackie Stewart's problem with regards to Hamilton? He has been such a critic of Hamilton. Is he sour that he isn't the most successful Briton in F1? He has always been critical of Hamilton.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lewi ... -m3plwh6rg
Lewis Hamilton a worthy champion but not as good as Manuel Fangio, says Sir Jackie Stewart
SO many other times where has been sour.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/11/01 ... nighthood/
http://en.f1i.com/news/270051-stewart-b ... ilton.html
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/ ... grand-prix
http://www.espn.in/f1/story/_/id/175935 ... lost-focus
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autos ... versy-News
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formul ... ewart.html
http://www.givemesport.com/875570-sir-j ... is-driving

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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I think Jackie Stewart is just suffering "old man syndrome". He was one of the best of his day and held in much regard in the UK but Hamilton has shown him a clean pair of heels and the old guy doesn't like it. I have no doubt that if Hamilton was a quiet family guy away from the track, Stewart would be less critical of him.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

makecry
makecry
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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GPR-A wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:32 pm
What is Jackie Stewart's problem with regards to Hamilton? He has been such a critic of Hamilton. Is he sour that he isn't the most successful Briton in F1? He has always been critical of Hamilton.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lewi ... -m3plwh6rg
Lewis Hamilton a worthy champion but not as good as Manuel Fangio, says Sir Jackie Stewart
SO many other times where has been sour.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/11/01 ... nighthood/
http://en.f1i.com/news/270051-stewart-b ... ilton.html
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/ ... grand-prix
http://www.espn.in/f1/story/_/id/175935 ... lost-focus
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autos ... versy-News
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formul ... ewart.html
http://www.givemesport.com/875570-sir-j ... is-driving


So wait now he says Lewis is a worthy champion but in his opinion Fangio was better and you have a problem with that? I mean seriously. The guy just praised Lewis and called him a worthy champion. He thinks Fangio is better (So do I), and that makes him "sour" and "critical". FFS, I guess some people would be happy only if Lewis is declared GOAT by everyone remotely related to F1.

Ennis
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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makecry wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:28 am
GPR-A wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:32 pm
What is Jackie Stewart's problem with regards to Hamilton? He has been such a critic of Hamilton. Is he sour that he isn't the most successful Briton in F1? He has always been critical of Hamilton.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lewi ... -m3plwh6rg
Lewis Hamilton a worthy champion but not as good as Manuel Fangio, says Sir Jackie Stewart
SO many other times where has been sour.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/11/01 ... nighthood/
http://en.f1i.com/news/270051-stewart-b ... ilton.html
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/ ... grand-prix
http://www.espn.in/f1/story/_/id/175935 ... lost-focus
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autos ... versy-News
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formul ... ewart.html
http://www.givemesport.com/875570-sir-j ... is-driving


So wait now he says Lewis is a worthy champion but in his opinion Fangio was better and you have a problem with that? I mean seriously. The guy just praised Lewis and called him a worthy champion. He thinks Fangio is better (So do I), and that makes him "sour" and "critical". FFS, I guess some people would be happy only if Lewis is declared GOAT by everyone remotely related to F1.
I think its more a case of past history. If this was a one-off, there would be no criticism of Stewart. As it stands, he does always seem to find a way to sneer at Hamilton every opportunity he gets.

I agree with the poster above that it is old man syndrome. If someone is older and also a bit stuck in their ways, this young arrogant guy with celebrity friends, designer dogs and diamonds attached to his body is going to annoy them.

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AMG.Tzan
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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makecry wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:28 am
GPR-A wrote:
Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:32 pm
What is Jackie Stewart's problem with regards to Hamilton? He has been such a critic of Hamilton. Is he sour that he isn't the most successful Briton in F1? He has always been critical of Hamilton.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/lewi ... -m3plwh6rg
Lewis Hamilton a worthy champion but not as good as Manuel Fangio, says Sir Jackie Stewart
SO many other times where has been sour.

https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/11/01 ... nighthood/
http://en.f1i.com/news/270051-stewart-b ... ilton.html
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/ ... grand-prix
http://www.espn.in/f1/story/_/id/175935 ... lost-focus
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autos ... versy-News
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formul ... ewart.html
http://www.givemesport.com/875570-sir-j ... is-driving


So wait now he says Lewis is a worthy champion but in his opinion Fangio was better and you have a problem with that? I mean seriously. The guy just praised Lewis and called him a worthy champion. He thinks Fangio is better (So do I), and that makes him "sour" and "critical". FFS, I guess some people would be happy only if Lewis is declared GOAT by everyone remotely related to F1.
He has been critical of Hamilton for so many years now...always saying that Vettel and Alonso are better! Does he still believe that after 2017?? I mean if he still cannot give credit to Hamilton for being up there all year long while not making mistakes in comparison to Vettel's hot head this year...then i don't know when he will! He was also critical with Senna in the past saying that he crashed all the time :lol: ...it took him some time after Senna died to understand who was the fastest of all time!
"The only rule is there are no rules" - Aristotle Onassis

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Shrieker
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Oh my... That is so embarrassing lol. And him comparing Lewis with Fangio. He is one of the best qualified man alive to know that drivers from eras so different from one another can not be compared... Could Hamilton have driven Fangio's car as fast as he did ? Probably not. Then again, same for Fangio.
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GPR-A duplicate2
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Shrieker wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 12:58 pm
Oh my... That is so embarrassing lol. And him comparing Lewis with Fangio. He is one of the best qualified man alive to know that drivers from eras so different from one another can not be compared... Could Hamilton have driven Fangio's car as fast as he did ? Probably not. Then again, same for Fangio.
Absolutely. The problem is not just with comparison, which is absolutely absurd and no one should be compared, but the rate at which Jackie has been hurling criticism towards Hamilton for years now, doesn't reserve him any dignity.

It is not that Hamilton has achieved something that no other driver has, but anytime there is an achievement worth recognizing, it has to be done with respect and dignity.

gdogg371
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Only two drivers who have had an undeniable something supernatural about them since I started watching F1 in 1993 have been Senna and Hamilton. Alonso and Schumacher have both been exceptionally talented and fantastic at dragging deficient cars to excellent results, but they were never able to combine that with putting in almost magical qualifying laps multiple times per season in cars ranging from poor to exceptional and against undeniably talented team mates.

Most of the legend of Senna is based on the original turbo era where F1 cars were probably at their most difficult ever to make go quickly over a single lap. Those eight poles in '86 I think it was in a distinctly average Lotus for example. From 1989 the cars were a lot easier drive and whilst he still put in some excellent drives (particularly in the wet) and mere mortals could get closer to him.

Hamilton has been around in an era when the cars are quicker, but a lot easier to drive all round than they were in the 80's, so his talent doesn't shine as much as it could in a tougher formula. Senna and Hamilton at Lotus in 1986 would have been a sight to behold during qualifying...

cplchanb
cplchanb
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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gdogg371 wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:26 pm
Only two drivers who have had an undeniable something supernatural about them since I started watching F1 in 1993 have been Senna and Hamilton. Alonso and Schumacher have both been exceptionally talented and fantastic at dragging deficient cars to excellent results, but they were never able to combine that with putting in almost magical qualifying laps multiple times per season in cars ranging from poor to exceptional and against undeniably talented team mates.

Most of the legend of Senna is based on the original turbo era where F1 cars were probably at their most difficult ever to make go quickly over a single lap. Those eight poles in '86 I think it was in a distinctly average Lotus for example. From 1989 the cars were a lot easier drive and whilst he still put in some excellent drives (particularly in the wet) and mere mortals could get closer to him.

Hamilton has been around in an era when the cars are quicker, but a lot easier to drive all round than they were in the 80's, so his talent doesn't shine as much as it could in a tougher formula. Senna and Hamilton at Lotus in 1986 would have been a sight to behold during qualifying...
i respectfully disagree with the statement omitting schumacher. theres a reason why he had the pole record until now. sure he had many poles in the dynasty era but many were also set in the darker years like 97-99 when other teams had better cars or at least as competitive. teammates wise apart from the tenure with prost and berger, most of the teammates were pretty subpar to him to begin with.

however when gauging greatness you cant just label someone legendary with bias towards their qualifying. its should be the entire package. schumi in undeniably legendary (good and bad ways) because not only was he the rainmaster and fast, he built a team around him from essentially losers to a dynasty. not to mention, qualifying during his strongest years were based on race fuel levels. alot of the poles that other drivers got during those years sacrificed their race performance. If you look at 2007/08 when hamilton had arguably the strongest cars of the field he didnt clean the poles because race fuel dictated alot of qualifying. likewise for senna. Im sure that if it was race fuel, alot of the magical poles wouldnt have happened.

just my 2 cents...

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ringo
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cplchanb wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:38 pm

i respectfully disagree with the statement omitting schumacher. theres a reason why he had the pole record until now. sure he had many poles in the dynasty era but many were also set in the darker years like 97-99 when other teams had better cars or at least as competitive. teammates wise apart from the tenure with prost and berger, most of the teammates were pretty subpar to him to begin with.

however when gauging greatness you cant just label someone legendary with bias towards their qualifying. its should be the entire package. schumi in undeniably legendary (good and bad ways) because not only was he the rainmaster and fast, he built a team around him from essentially losers to a dynasty. not to mention, qualifying during his strongest years were based on race fuel levels. alot of the poles that other drivers got during those years sacrificed their race performance. If you look at 2007/08 when hamilton had arguably the strongest cars of the field he didnt clean the poles because race fuel dictated alot of qualifying. likewise for senna. Im sure that if it was race fuel, alot of the magical poles wouldnt have happened.

just my 2 cents...
What's funny is i agree with both of you.. because i think that different things are being compared. The only disagreement i have is what you said about Hamilton without even recognizing that you are being over critical of a rookie hamilton in 2007 and 2008. The mere fact you are holding a rookie to the standards of the great schumacher speaks for itself. Both are legends of the sport.
Schumacher was very good at everything apart from sportsmanship. He wasn't necessarily in the mold of Senna and Lewis when it comes to qualifying excitement. This isn't because he wasn't fast in qualifying, it's more to do who we can compare him to in the other car. He didn't have any teammates who were considered exceptional drivers like Lewis and Senna did.
I don't think there is a bias to Hamilton's qualifying that renders him great; while ignoring mediocrity. His qualifying stands out amongst his other exceptional qualities. Schumacher's qualify maybe wasn't his standout quality from what i mentioned about his cars and teammates but that doesnt mean Michael wasn't super quick, it just means he had other things that were more admirable like the stuff you have mentioned already.

Where i think Lewis is in a league by himself, is what I have noticed ever since he came on the scene. His racecraft.
Best in the field for ten years. His strongest asset is his race craft. His attacking approach, his defending, and also how he uses the car based on the conditions out on the track. I don't think Senna or Shumachaer are comparable in this regard hence why Hamilton is more exciting to watch.
Again it doesn't even make sense comparing the greats as a whole. It's more sensical to compare the individual things that makes them great.
Shumacher = good at everything generally, very ruthless, fitness, team building, passion, rain master.
Senna = passion, ruthless, qualifying pace, getting the most out of a not so good car, etc.. ( i never watched senna)
Hamilton = sportsmanship, qualifying pace, race craft, getting the most out of the car, rain master, mind games, etc.
For Sure!!

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ringo
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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makecry wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:28 am

So wait now he says Lewis is a worthy champion but in his opinion Fangio was better and you have a problem with that? I mean seriously. The guy just praised Lewis and called him a worthy champion. He thinks Fangio is better (So do I), and that makes him "sour" and "critical". FFS, I guess some people would be happy only if Lewis is declared GOAT by everyone remotely related to F1.
I think you need the context. He was asked about lewis, but he had to throw in something to diminish the accomplishment. Nothing wrong if he thinks Fangio was the shiznit.
Anyhow, i don't mind Jackie being negative. It's good having him around to criticize each year and watch how he raises the bar each year. He is very competitive, and thinks he is the greatest driver born after his birthday (hence why he praised Fangio and Clark) so i don't expect him to give an inch to hamilton, but it's fun watching him gnash his teeth as the stats go up for Hamilton.
For Sure!!

sAx
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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ringo wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:13 am
cplchanb wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:38 pm

i respectfully disagree with the statement omitting schumacher. theres a reason why he had the pole record until now. sure he had many poles in the dynasty era but many were also set in the darker years like 97-99 when other teams had better cars or at least as competitive. teammates wise apart from the tenure with prost and berger, most of the teammates were pretty subpar to him to begin with.

however when gauging greatness you cant just label someone legendary with bias towards their qualifying. its should be the entire package. schumi in undeniably legendary (good and bad ways) because not only was he the rainmaster and fast, he built a team around him from essentially losers to a dynasty. not to mention, qualifying during his strongest years were based on race fuel levels. alot of the poles that other drivers got during those years sacrificed their race performance. If you look at 2007/08 when hamilton had arguably the strongest cars of the field he didnt clean the poles because race fuel dictated alot of qualifying. likewise for senna. Im sure that if it was race fuel, alot of the magical poles wouldnt have happened.

just my 2 cents...
Hamilton = sportsmanship, qualifying pace, race craft, getting the most out of the car, rain master, mind games, etc.
A degree of racing intelligence should be recognised too. Witness run down to Eau Rouge at Spa under extreme pressure and having the capacity to reduce effect of slipstream by easing off the throttle on the rise to Raidillon. Never heard any of the greats claim that as a possibility!
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GPR-A duplicate2
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Re: 2017 AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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sAx wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:03 am
ringo wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:13 am
cplchanb wrote:
Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:38 pm

i respectfully disagree with the statement omitting schumacher. theres a reason why he had the pole record until now. sure he had many poles in the dynasty era but many were also set in the darker years like 97-99 when other teams had better cars or at least as competitive. teammates wise apart from the tenure with prost and berger, most of the teammates were pretty subpar to him to begin with.

however when gauging greatness you cant just label someone legendary with bias towards their qualifying. its should be the entire package. schumi in undeniably legendary (good and bad ways) because not only was he the rainmaster and fast, he built a team around him from essentially losers to a dynasty. not to mention, qualifying during his strongest years were based on race fuel levels. alot of the poles that other drivers got during those years sacrificed their race performance. If you look at 2007/08 when hamilton had arguably the strongest cars of the field he didnt clean the poles because race fuel dictated alot of qualifying. likewise for senna. Im sure that if it was race fuel, alot of the magical poles wouldnt have happened.

just my 2 cents...
Hamilton = sportsmanship, qualifying pace, race craft, getting the most out of the car, rain master, mind games, etc.
A degree of racing intelligence should be recognised too. Witness run down to Eau Rouge at Spa under extreme pressure and having the capacity to reduce effect of slipstream by easing off the throttle on the rise to Raidillon. Never heard any of the greats claim that as a possibility!
Not to make this some kind of "Hamilton ga ga thread", but would like to add a few more bits about the intellectual part.
- Obviously, he came on the scene without having much 0f a chance in 2007, against a two time champion, but soon was rookie "to be champion".
- When PIRELLI came on scene in 2011 AND with a particular demand from FIA to manufacture fast degrading tyres, everyone said, it would be Jenson whose smooth style would suit the new rubber, the most. In spite of having a rubbish year, Hamilton still got as many wins as Jenson did, plus a pole (the only pole that went to a driver other than that of RB that year).
- When 2014 hybrid engines were unvieled, everyone said, THE INTELLIGENT Rosberg will have a march on Hamilton. On the contrary, it was Hamilton who used those engines in a far intelligent way. His fuel consumption ALWAYS used to be less than that of Rosberg's, in spite of being faster than Rosberg. His tyre utilization was also better than that of Rosberg.
- In 2014 Monza, while his engineer asked him to bide his time after the pit stop to go for a late attack on Rosberg, he decided to do it at the beginning of the stint, as he knew the rubber wouldn't last for a late push.
- In US GP this year, after the race, he explained how he realized that Vettel is going to give an opportunity for overtaking, as he observed that Vettel was attacking turn 9, which he thought was a bad idea and would kill the tyres, while he wasn't attacking turn 9. And it did turn out that way.
- Of course the point mentioned about SPA this year.

In many ways, with the kind of lifestyle he has led, he has given this impression to people that he is not such an intelligent driver, sort of "Gangsta" type and all that stuff. But the things that he does on track, proves otherwise. Those who were rated supposedly more intelligent, haven't managed to compete with him in crucial thought provoking situations. With his sheer speed and the fact that he has never done anything ECCENTRIC like the things that Senna and Michael have done, he definitely stands out. That's not to belittle Senna or Michael. Just a distinction.

I am of the strong opinion that, Michael would have had far far too many pole positions, if the qualifying wasn't being done on race load (which brought in a lot of variety and Ferrari always placed premium for race and let go of many poles). The fact that, most modern drivers have more poles than wins, shows how different approach is now, than it was in Michael's time. If it was like that of today, qualifying on fumes, I am sure Michael would have had a minimum of 100 poles.