2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

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ESPImperium
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by ESPImperium » Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:42 pm

f1316 wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 2:49 pm
Seeing Exon/Mobil moving back to Honda makes me think back to one of my pre-season favourite topics: I wonder how much the fuel suppliers' merry-go-round affected the both Honda/Renault's development this year.

Can't have been good for continuity and neither company really made the expected progress.
I can't help but think the same. As the loss of Total/Elf to Renault and the adoption of BP/Castrol must have lost some energy in the combustion chamber as well as having two crews operating, one for Honda and one for Renault/Toro Rosso as well. And the change in combustion chamber and ERS characteristics for Exxon Mobil going from Honda to Renault will play a part. Im sure their PR Bull will say the loss in power will be much less than expected, maybe 12hp in total to their blurb, but i do feel as if the power loss will be maybe 5 times that as their mix will be different in terms of how the hydrocarbons are extracted in the combustion chamber.

Its funny how Honda and Renault have been experiencing technical failures, as i remember someone from Petronas and corroborated by Shell that fuel in the V6T-H era would be used not only for extracting the peak amount of energy that they can, but also the fuel and lubricants would be used in some way to help cool the components in ways that the V8s could have never been.

zoroastar
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by zoroastar » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:21 am

i agree. i wouldnt be at all surprised if renault pull a "ferrari" in 2018 and finally pull close to even. honda will be better, but i think mclaren are looking at the probability that even if honda do come out stronger, there is absolutely no way that they wont be getting a lot of grid penalties with the 3 engine limit. renault may too, but they are in a much better position to even the playing field. if mclaren stick with honda they are stuck in basically the same position for at least another year and a half. 2021 is all new. who knows what they can do with their car when they can actually participate in preseason tests.

f1316 wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 1:18 pm

I personally don't subscribe to this 'championships are impossible with Renault' narrative; I'm sure Red Bull expects a power unit next year that will be close enough to let an exceptional chassis compete consistently for wins.

Oil burning clampdown will almost certainly mean the quali modes are less of a differentiator (the actions taken by Mercedes in recent weeks all but confirms they've been burning oil as fuel since 2014) and Renault have had some stagnation this year as a result of a complete concept overhaul. They should see more fruits from that new concept next year.

So whilst I don't think it'll be on terms with Mercedes and Ferrari, I think it can be close enough that a chassis advantage can bridge the gap - let's say 3 tenths. Not saying that *will* happen - nor that RB or McLaren have/will have better chassis than Mercedes or Ferrari - just that it's feasible and so taking a Renault engine is not an admission of defeat. Quite the contrary, I think it's a big step forward and puts the power back in the hands of the chassis builder.

Hammerfist
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Hammerfist » Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:00 am

Schuttelberg wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:50 am
BeardedAce wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:07 am
techman wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:45 am
Its pretty clear mclaren were runing more wing. in constrast redbull had a very skinny rear wing. for a place like monza running more wing will eat you in the straights, No wonder redbull did really well against all renault and even got managed to overtake a ferrari. redbull has the best efficient chassis, and next year mclaren chassis will get exposed by redbull. Cant put all blame on honda and mclaren to run heavy rear wing causing more drag especially in monza. mclaren all want to do is toot their horns and boast how quick they are in corners, they dont realise its how much running more wing will destroy straight line speed.
http://adn.gpupdate.net/large/312760.jpg
http://adn.gpupdate.net/large/312587.jpg
http://adn.gpupdate.net/large/312742.jpg
Gary Anderson said the same thing in SPA, unfortunately he was labeled a "Mclaren Hater" for saying that. Mclaren is doing everything to make Honda look bad to get out of the contract. Part of me wants to see them running a Renault engine next year, so we can see how good their chassis really is, there have been a lot of boasting since 2015 about their hallowed chassis.
Let's look at it all objectively- Every time we've been to circuits that are tight and twisty or less power dependent, McLaren has looked the part. They've not been at the sharp end of it, but they've not been miserable. I feel McLaren have every right to believe that they do have one of the best cars. Is the chassis a match for the RBR? If you ask me, I don't think even the Merc/Ferrari have had the chassis that RBR has in the second half on any of these seasons. But was the McLaren on par with the Merc and Ferrari? Impossible to tell. I certainly felt that the 2016 McLaren chassis was as good or better than the Ferrari chassis. The most important thing we never recognise is that it's impossible to judge the McLaren chassis because of the PU in the car. It's never been pushed.

In my opinion, people are under estimating McLaren. I think they can make as good a chassis as RBR in 2018, may be even better. It won't be easy, but that's high level sport. I don't think we should under estimate the factory Renault either. They themselves are capable of making a winner. I for one don't doubt any of the abilities of these 3 teams. They're all multiple championship winners. However, in the current set of regulations so vehemently dominated by power units, my mind says Renault will beat both Red Bull and McLaren. And personally, I don't think RBR or McLaren care where they end up if they can't win the title.

I think more than anything else and anyone else, McLaren are in desperate need of stability. They need a management that thinks long term. I don't think EB or ZB are the answer to those questions and I fear neither is Alonso. This is not a team that's battling for survival. It's one that's struggling to get to the top. It's the only reason that this side step makes me feel so underwhelmed. I can't help but feel ZB is a little out of his depth in F1. This is not American racing where you suddenly put another PU and McLaren will get to the top. F1 has always been building bricks to make a wall. I feel that he's succumbing to the media and a driver that's fueling the fire in the media. McLaren needs a more headstrong leader. Just my opinion.
Well, we will find out for sure how good the Mclaren chassis is next year when Redbull will run the same pu.

IMO Mclaren was hiding a lot behind Honda last year, but not so much this year. Last year's Honda power unit was not as bad as this year's when compared to its competition, but last year's Mclaren chassis failed to prove itself at Monaco, Suzuka, in rainy conditions, and some of the onboards showed the car wasn't easy to drive. Imo, the STR chassis was better than Mclaren's last year.

But next year we will definitely have a clear picture of where their chassis stacks up.

f1316
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by f1316 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:49 am

And to me that's why it's such a positive move - we will see a like for like comparison between the Red Bull and McLaren chassis and clearly McLaren fancy themselves in that.

hemichromis
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by hemichromis » Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:18 am

It would be very surprising in Mclaren could match Red bull with a renault engine even if their current chassis is as good.
Mclaren would have to redesign their chassis to fit a very different engine, Red bull only have to continue to evolve.

techman
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by techman » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:25 am

actually iam excited for next season.cant wait to see those suprise faces in mclaren when the redbull beat them easily. the honda bashing was ridicously by mclaren, but they cant hide anymore next season. mclaren never praised the honda engine for been one of the lightest out there thus helping them but continued to bash them. next year with a renault, we will see how overated the mclaren chassis is.

Lucky
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Lucky » Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:35 am


Dipesh1995
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Dipesh1995 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:02 am

Hammerfist wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:00 am
Schuttelberg wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:50 am
BeardedAce wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:07 am


Gary Anderson said the same thing in SPA, unfortunately he was labeled a "Mclaren Hater" for saying that. Mclaren is doing everything to make Honda look bad to get out of the contract. Part of me wants to see them running a Renault engine next year, so we can see how good their chassis really is, there have been a lot of boasting since 2015 about their hallowed chassis.
Let's look at it all objectively- Every time we've been to circuits that are tight and twisty or less power dependent, McLaren has looked the part. They've not been at the sharp end of it, but they've not been miserable. I feel McLaren have every right to believe that they do have one of the best cars. Is the chassis a match for the RBR? If you ask me, I don't think even the Merc/Ferrari have had the chassis that RBR has in the second half on any of these seasons. But was the McLaren on par with the Merc and Ferrari? Impossible to tell. I certainly felt that the 2016 McLaren chassis was as good or better than the Ferrari chassis. The most important thing we never recognise is that it's impossible to judge the McLaren chassis because of the PU in the car. It's never been pushed.

In my opinion, people are under estimating McLaren. I think they can make as good a chassis as RBR in 2018, may be even better. It won't be easy, but that's high level sport. I don't think we should under estimate the factory Renault either. They themselves are capable of making a winner. I for one don't doubt any of the abilities of these 3 teams. They're all multiple championship winners. However, in the current set of regulations so vehemently dominated by power units, my mind says Renault will beat both Red Bull and McLaren. And personally, I don't think RBR or McLaren care where they end up if they can't win the title.

I think more than anything else and anyone else, McLaren are in desperate need of stability. They need a management that thinks long term. I don't think EB or ZB are the answer to those questions and I fear neither is Alonso. This is not a team that's battling for survival. It's one that's struggling to get to the top. It's the only reason that this side step makes me feel so underwhelmed. I can't help but feel ZB is a little out of his depth in F1. This is not American racing where you suddenly put another PU and McLaren will get to the top. F1 has always been building bricks to make a wall. I feel that he's succumbing to the media and a driver that's fueling the fire in the media. McLaren needs a more headstrong leader. Just my opinion.
Well, we will find out for sure how good the Mclaren chassis is next year when Redbull will run the same pu.

IMO Mclaren was hiding a lot behind Honda last year, but not so much this year. Last year's Honda power unit was not as bad as this year's when compared to its competition, but last year's Mclaren chassis failed to prove itself at Monaco, Suzuka, in rainy conditions, and some of the onboards showed the car wasn't easy to drive. Imo, the STR chassis was better than Mclaren's last year.

But next year we will definitely have a clear picture of where their chassis stacks up.
I'd agree with that. Last year's chassis was weak when it came to mechanical grip, certainly behind the Toro Rosso. Aerodynamically, I believe it was up there with the Ferrari.

Shrieker
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Shrieker » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:29 am

McLaren Renault in 2018.
Honda to Toro Rosso.
Carlos Sainz Jr. to Renault. In Malaysia ?!? Dafuq.
AND Renault are going to PAY Palmer for voiding his contract. OUCH !
Last edited by Shrieker on Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ZakB
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by ZakB » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:30 am

hemichromis wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:18 am
It would be very surprising in Mclaren could match Red bull with a renault engine even if their current chassis is as good.
Mclaren would have to redesign their chassis to fit a very different engine, Red bull only have to continue to evolve.
That's why they had to make the decision now, else it would have affected development on the 2018 car. I think it's going to be good for everyone. Honda has less pressure, McLaren can fight with the big guys again, BP Castrol can develop the same fuel for two teams, Toro Rosso receives some money and Sainz moves to a works team, which he deserves in my eyes.

Webber2011
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by Webber2011 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:17 pm

ZakB wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:44 pm
Webber2011 wrote:
Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:36 am
If McLaren didn't commit to a minimum 6 year plan with Honda, then they have no one to blame but themselves
It's just like marriage, sometimes things don't work out and it's better to split.
You may be right ZakB, who knows ?

I feel it's a bit early to go the divorce route though
I feel McLaren have panicked & don't have as much time as they originally figured this partnership would need to become successful.

It's been a struggle for sure, and Honda have not done themselves any favours with choosing the wrong configuration at the start of this PU era, but I still have faith they can bounce back from that and build a better PU than Renault.

Unless they have some sort of clause to only use Renault PU's until Honda come good, then sadly all I can see in the next few years is McLaren battling with Williams for 5th or even 6th in the Comp'.

Red Bull are sitting back rubbing their hands together with glee, just waiting for Honda to come good without the pain of the first few disaster years Honda has been through with Macca.

Seriously mate, even though McLaren should be fighting at the front, I can't think of any way that moving to a Renault engine will suddenly make a difference to their slide down the order.

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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by RedNEO » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:30 pm

ZakB wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:30 am
hemichromis wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:18 am
It would be very surprising in Mclaren could match Red bull with a renault engine even if their current chassis is as good.
Mclaren would have to redesign their chassis to fit a very different engine, Red bull only have to continue to evolve.
That's why they had to make the decision now, else it would have affected development on the 2018 car. I think it's going to be good for everyone. Honda has less pressure, McLaren can fight with the big guys again, BP Castrol can develop the same fuel for two teams, Toro Rosso receives some money and Sainz moves to a works team, which he deserves in my eyes.
Thanks Zac Brown, you've saved McLaren and also made a few angry engineers at Torro Rosso :)

Here's to a McLaren Renault successful 2018!

Image

NathanOlder
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by NathanOlder » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:42 pm

I guess climbing to 6th in the WCC could be classed as a success
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marvin78
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by marvin78 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:18 pm

RedNEO wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:30 pm
ZakB wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:30 am
hemichromis wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:18 am
It would be very surprising in Mclaren could match Red bull with a renault engine even if their current chassis is as good.
Mclaren would have to redesign their chassis to fit a very different engine, Red bull only have to continue to evolve.
That's why they had to make the decision now, else it would have affected development on the 2018 car. I think it's going to be good for everyone. Honda has less pressure, McLaren can fight with the big guys again, BP Castrol can develop the same fuel for two teams, Toro Rosso receives some money and Sainz moves to a works team, which he deserves in my eyes.
Thanks Zac Brown, you've saved McLaren and also made a few angry engineers at Torro Rosso :)

Here's to a McLaren Renault successful 2018!

https://i.giphy.com/media/GCLlQnV7wzKLu/giphy.gif
Wait. You were the one who said it yould be 100% McLaren Mercedes in 2018. So how is the feeling of not being right and selling that as a win?

RedNEO
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Re: 2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

Post by RedNEO » Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:46 pm

marvin78 wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:18 pm
RedNEO wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:30 pm
ZakB wrote:
Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:30 am


That's why they had to make the decision now, else it would have affected development on the 2018 car. I think it's going to be good for everyone. Honda has less pressure, McLaren can fight with the big guys again, BP Castrol can develop the same fuel for two teams, Toro Rosso receives some money and Sainz moves to a works team, which he deserves in my eyes.
Thanks Zac Brown, you've saved McLaren and also made a few angry engineers at Torro Rosso :)

Here's to a McLaren Renault successful 2018!

https://i.giphy.com/media/GCLlQnV7wzKLu/giphy.gif
Wait. You were the one who said it yould be 100% McLaren Mercedes in 2018. So how is the feeling of not being right and selling that as a win?
Nope definitely didn't say that you must be confused.