2017 Mclaren F1 Team - Honda

[etusch]

I think it is not only drag. For example a car can be looked good at straights and in straight air flow in terms of df but can be bad at turns when they are not in straight airflow. These must not be only wings because every team uses nearly same. It would be easy if it were only wings.

[Alonso Fan]

Well, basically this is what I suspected - McLaren are not capable to increase the downforce without increasing the drag. This is the problem of all customer teams - they have the power of Mercedes or Ferrari engines but they are wasting this power with huge drag. That's why they are forced, to choose between high drag-downforce settings or thin wings with high straight speed. Actually, the first option is not an option for them - if they run high drag-downforce they will loose in the corners against better balanced chassis of the works teams, but also they will loose the only real asset that they have - the power advantage given by the Mercedes or Ferrari PU on the straights. On other hand, Red Bull have very efficient chassis which means no-drag-high-downforce. This allows them to be superior in the corners sections without sacrificing too much of the limited available power on straights. Because McLaren obviously have high drag-downforce chassis they cannot run the same settings like Red Bull. Saying this I don't wish to hurt the feelings of McLaren fans here. I am really sorry that the McLaren-Honda project failed. This is not good for both sides. Three years of efforts and hopes have gone because of corporate games and mistakes.

Yes sure OBVIOUSLY but I won't buy it until you bring evidence or calculation

I'm not saying mclaren's chassis is the best, or even better than red bull's, but a 10-20kph difference in top speed purely due to drag? With a chassis designed at least aerodynamically by PP? When the deficiencies in the PU have been highlighted with evidence from race weekends, how they struggle with deployment when the full throttle percentage is high and there aren't many long braking zones etc?

Customer teams don't have the aero expertise that the big teams have, nor do they have the funds to develop as much. Usually they are faster on the straights but lack overall downforce compared to the manufacturers. This is shown by their inability to keep up in the corners.

Come on. There's one thing having an opinion and there's another being totally unrealistic

[RonDennis]

Well, basically this is what I suspected - McLaren are not capable to increase the downforce without increasing the drag. This is the problem of all customer teams - they have the power of Mercedes or Ferrari engines but they are wasting this power with huge drag. That's why they are forced, to choose between high drag-downforce settings or thin wings with high straight speed. Actually, the first option is not an option for them - if they run high drag-downforce they will loose in the corners against better balanced chassis of the works teams, but also they will loose the only real asset that they have - the power advantage given by the Mercedes or Ferrari PU on the straights. On other hand, Red Bull have very efficient chassis which means no-drag-high-downforce. This allows them to be superior in the corners sections without sacrificing too much of the limited available power on straights. Because McLaren obviously have high drag-downforce chassis they cannot run the same settings like Red Bull. Saying this I don't wish to hurt the feelings of McLaren fans here. I am really sorry that the McLaren-Honda project failed. This is not good for both sides. Three years of efforts and hopes have gone because of corporate games and mistakes.

Again with the boring drag story, I still wonder why McLaren haven't hired all the people in here. You guys know exactly how to get McLaren back on top again. You actually think McLaren would leave Honda, say goodbye to 100 million works deal for an engine with similar power output. McLaren has all the information from Honda and Renault, while we have none. This car was probably designed for an engine with much more power, so they were heavily handicapped since day one. But I guess the engine 'guru' of Honda now also knows how to setup the McLaren, is there anything they can't do?

[the EDGE]

Well, basically this is what I suspected - McLaren are not capable to increase the downforce without increasing the drag. This is the problem of all customer teams - they have the power of Mercedes or Ferrari engines but they are wasting this power with huge drag. That's why they are forced, to choose between high drag-downforce settings or thin wings with high straight speed. Actually, the first option is not an option for them - if they run high drag-downforce they will loose in the corners against better balanced chassis of the works teams, but also they will loose the only real asset that they have - the power advantage given by the Mercedes or Ferrari PU on the straights. On other hand, Red Bull have very efficient chassis which means no-drag-high-downforce. This allows them to be superior in the corners sections without sacrificing too much of the limited available power on straights. Because McLaren obviously have high drag-downforce chassis they cannot run the same settings like Red Bull. Saying this I don't wish to hurt the feelings of McLaren fans here. I am really sorry that the McLaren-Honda project failed. This is not good for both sides. Three years of efforts and hopes have gone because of corporate games and mistakes.

So what you are trying to have us believe is that Peter prodromou, the guy that has worked with Adrian Newey for the last 26 years as his right-hand man, second in charge of Aero at Redbull And quite clearly his Protege has suddenly forgot everything he has learnt about making the most aeroefficient cars there has ever been in Formula One

Not only that, but every serious motor sports technical journalist that say the McLaren chassis is excellent, and the drivers that say the car is amazing but has no power on the straights and even Honda who openly admit their engine is underpowered Are wrong, and you’re right

I do t usually bother replying to nonsense, complete waste of time trying to persuade people that black is actually black and not white, but honestly?

[HondaRaceReplica]

luckily there is a way of settling this like men.....Next year Toro Rosso Honda vs Mclaren Renault....May the best “Team” win!.....

[etusch]

luckily there is a way of settling this like men.....Next year Toro Rosso Honda vs Mclaren Renault....May the best “Team” win!.....

+1

[stevesingo]

At an equal power level I calculate that the difference in drag between ALO on Friday 325.8 and Saturday 316.2 is 10.9%. Seems a lot for some added wing.

Oh and Stelle Bandoon sounds a much faster name than Soffel Vandoorn.

[stevesingo]

IIRC ALO was only 3-4kph faster than MAS despite being behind MAS with DRS. THere must be some kind of hidden invisible parachute on the back of the McLaren, fitted by McLaren Engineers to make themselves look good whilst destroying the reputation of Honda AND damage their own WCC points haul.

[McMika98]

luckily there is a way of settling this like men.....Next year Toro Rosso Honda vs Mclaren Renault....May the best “Team” win!.....

Even better. Red Bull Renault vs Mclaren Renault. Lets see who will have the best chassis. I can already think of some of the excuses if they are behind.
To me they will do well to stay in front of Renault. Btw PP so far is known for high downforce high drag aero even on the heyday of Redbull.

[RonDennis]

luckily there is a way of settling this like men.....Next year Toro Rosso Honda vs Mclaren Renault....May the best “Team” win!.....

Toro Rosso can't even keep up with McLaren-Honda, they won't stand a chance.

[NL_Fer]

Isn’t it all not just about the sweet spot of aero/drag were the chassis is designed? I mean lets say for example chassis A on slow tracks has high downforce and medium drag which is excelent. But the same chassis on a fast track has low downforce, but still a considerable amount of drag, which makes chassis A a sucker on highspeed tracks. Now we have chassis B which has medium downforce, medium drag on slow tracks, but low downforce, ultralow drag on fast tracks.

These cars will have different performance on the same tracks, but one is not better than the other.

I think the McLaren is like A or B, but comparable like Ferrari or Mercedes. They both have their own sweetspot.

[HondaRaceReplica]

luckily there is a way of settling this like men.....Next year Toro Rosso Honda vs Mclaren Renault....May the best “Team” win!.....

Toro Rosso can't even keep up with McLaren-Honda, they won't stand a chance.

Don’t worry Mr. Dennis...Red Bull Honda 2019 will take care of that!.....

[GhostF1]

luckily there is a way of settling this like men.....Next year Toro Rosso Honda vs Mclaren Renault....May the best “Team” win!.....

Toro Rosso can't even keep up with McLaren-Honda, they won't stand a chance.

Don’t worry Mr. Dennis...Red Bull Honda 2019 will take care of that!.....

Not to mention STR suddenly get a sizeable cash injection by the way of free engines from Honda... I believe Franz has been saying in the conferences they have the ability to push development and make a competitive car for the partnership next year whether he is just hopeful or alluding to greater potential is up for debate but...
Whatever way you cut it, that 10-20% that Power Unit deals take up of the total budget for midfield/smaller teams.. suddenly having that available for use in other areas, ie: chassis development, simulator training, aero development, or just generally allowing for more frequent R&D for upgrades during the season, it will be of a big benefit to STR.

Who knows what could happen. But I'm genuinely curious to see what both McL-Renault and TR-Honda do next year.

[j.yank]

Here you can see a simple explanation how important is the aerodynamic of the front wing for lowering the drag of the car: https://badgergp.com/badger-gp-gives-you-front-wings/

10% difference and even more in the resulting drag are certainly possible given the area of the front tires. It seems that making good front wing is more a craft rather science. Even you have huge computational power, air tunnels, etc. you need someone like Newey to have an intuition which design will work and which not. So, being PP a long time trainee of Newey doesn't guarantee that he is capable as him. Not to speak that the authority argument is irrelevant in F1. Otherwise Ferrari should be permanent champions.

[Andres125sx]

So, being PP a long time trainee of Newey doesn't guarantee that he is capable as him

So there´s only two options, being as good as Newey, or being completely useless...

Sincerely j.yank, reading your posts it looks like you think your aero knownledge can be compared with Prodomou knowlege... is that the case?