2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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HPD
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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dren wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:25 pm
we wanted to use the complete rear end from Red Bull Racing, or Red Bull Technology, which is not the case anymore because we have a different engine, and we have to bring in people to bring this project to a successful end. But this is a normal process."
Could they be Red Bull people? To look for any benefit of 2019? (ok, it's offtopic. It is that the life of TR is so strange :lol: )
I do not know, it sounds very strange when he says they need new people for this.

techman
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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there's gonna be plenty of DNF's 2018 season, and that Honda engine up until now has not proven to be the most reliable asset in the field. So it'd be smart to play the long game and score points through patience.
can u guarantee it. this concept will not change for 2018 for honda, and they showed very good reliabiltiy in the latter stages. why so much hate. is your mind full of hate mclaren fan

McHonda
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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techman wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:12 am
there's gonna be plenty of DNF's 2018 season, and that Honda engine up until now has not proven to be the most reliable asset in the field. So it'd be smart to play the long game and score points through patience.
can u guarantee it. this concept will not change for 2018 for honda, and they showed very good reliabiltiy in the latter stages. why so much hate. is your mind full of hate mclaren fan
It's not hate to expect reliability problems when increasing performances in this era of PU's, Only Mercedes has managed to avoid it to any great degree.

Ferrari have done the next best, on another level to Renault and Honda, and they struggled with the re-sizing and reliability of the turbo last year and start of this year that these constant performance gains bring. Every increase in performance has a knock on effect elsewhere and things need adjusting along the way. This brings reliability concerns.

There's simply nothing to suggest Honda can do what Mercedes did rather than be another Ferrari at best or just another Renault. Unfortunately there's plenty to suggest they could do worse so it's a strange and overly optimistic viewpoint to think just because they are reliable now and there's no concept change there wont be any trouble when they make the considerable performance steps that's needed so any counter argument is far from hate and closer to common sense in truth.

We all hope they smash it and can do a Mercedes but can we stop pretending they already have and it's a done deal,it's embarrassing considering where we are in the pecking order. And anyone hoping simply for a Ferrari or Renault-esque result with reliability and are expecting some issues along the way isn't a hater.

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HPD
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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McHonda wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:52 am
techman wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:12 am
there's gonna be plenty of DNF's 2018 season, and that Honda engine up until now has not proven to be the most reliable asset in the field. So it'd be smart to play the long game and score points through patience.
can u guarantee it. this concept will not change for 2018 for honda, and they showed very good reliabiltiy in the latter stages. why so much hate. is your mind full of hate mclaren fan
It's not hate to expect reliability problems when increasing performances in this era of PU's, Only Mercedes has managed to avoid it to any great degree.

Ferrari have done the next best, on another level to Renault and Honda, and they struggled with the re-sizing and reliability of the turbo last year and start of this year that these constant performance gains bring. Every increase in performance has a knock on effect elsewhere and things need adjusting along the way. This brings reliability concerns.

There's simply nothing to suggest Honda can do what Mercedes did rather than be another Ferrari at best or just another Renault. Unfortunately there's plenty to suggest they could do worse so it's a strange and overly optimistic viewpoint to think just because they are reliable now and there's no concept change there wont be any trouble when they make the considerable performance steps that's needed so any counter argument is far from hate and closer to common sense in truth.

We all hope they smash it and can do a Mercedes but can we stop pretending they already have and it's a done deal,it's embarrassing considering where we are in the pecking order. And anyone hoping simply for a Ferrari or Renault-esque result with reliability and are expecting some issues along the way isn't a hater.
I think you're a little confused.
Nobody expects Honda to use 3 PU in 2018. Having Mercedes' reliability in 1 year is ridiculous.

Honda should aim to use 5 PU in 2018, penalize 2 times. It will give you more opportunity to introduce changes.

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etusch
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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for me finishing season with 5 ICE, 5 MGU-H and 3 or 4 EC, ES and MGU-K with a good performance is logical then trying to finish with allowed amount of component with lesser performance. I think every team ( even mercedes , except costumers) will make its plans for at for using least one more component each area.

restless
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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Any number of new ICE/MGU etc is allowed if at end of season they can make 3-4 weekends in a row without change/problem AND deliver performance near Ferrari level

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dren
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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Based on the press releases, I'm not convinced the TR - Honda package is going to be great going into testing.
Honda!

rogazilla
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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dren wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:14 pm
Based on the press releases, I'm not convinced the TR - Honda package is going to be great going into testing.
Or I think TR is not under pressure to attract sponsorship hence the message/PR release is more candid? Maybe Honda learned the lesson and set realistic expectation?

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dren
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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I think the packaging caught them off guard a bit and will force some issues early.
Honda!

aral
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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Can you guys not read the title of the thread? the slightest mention of Honda seems to bring out the usual suspects who then get into a slanging match about what happened in 2015, 2016 and 2017. That has ZILCH to do with STR Honda.

Zynerji
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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STR always seems to have a decent chassis. At least upper-midfield.

If the Honda turns out to be a beast after its very difficult teething phase and STR finds a few tricks in the installation, this could be a crazy long-shot for big points.

The real question will be reliability in 2018, for all finishers. No points early due to issues could spell HUGE points late when others take penalties.

I wonder what the line is on SkyBets for STR to take 4th place in the Constructors in 2018... :-?

Manoah2u
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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To be honest, i'm not so sure about these 'reliability' mountain the teams will face in the eye of having only 3 engines a season - because there's simply no way they're gonna manage that without major setbacks, so i'm rather expecting all teams to simply have planned in taking a scary amount of grid penalties, probably as much as they can in a single race.

toro rosso in particular has little to lose if their expectations are that their engine might need some time in the season start - if the Honda engine for 2018 turns out to be an absolute beast they'll have something to lose so that might change things, but you'll have to keep in mind the rule changes regarding grid penalties for 2018,
any driver that earns a penalty over 15 grid places, which is the equivalent of taking three extra new elements for the first time, will simply have to start from the back of the grid.

Rather than the positions of multiple penalised drivers being decided by how many grid places their penalties were ostensibly for, they will be lined up in the order of when they made the component changes.
and, not insignificant
Changes to ensure that oil cannot be used as fuel
Introduction of a detailed specification for oil
you'll only have 3 engines during a season, so every element of that which becomes a 4th element will be penalized by sending you to the back of the grid (atleast in the equivalent case of 15 place penalties). But the important thing is here; first come, first served. that would mean that if you are the first team during the day that mounts a 4th element, you are the first team/car that gets a penalty, let's say you would be serving a 'classic' 15 place grid penalty. but your competition has qualified one spot in front of you and then grabbed that 4th element. bad luck for them, because they'll be still behind you because you changed it first.

so now it becomes a game of getting all your elements renewed as fast as you can.

now if i am right, friday and saturday testing/practice doesn't count, only qually and race.
that would mean that per race event (which includes qually) you can at best change 2 elements. (perhaps some parts can be replaced during qually between f.e. Q1 and Q2, having it mounted at the clock start of Q1 and then still time to do a run in Q2, and then when you get back you change an element to be finished just in time do do 1 run in Q3. that could give you the opportunity to have element 1 at the start, element 2 by Q2, and element 3 by Q3. theoretically offcourse).

now, that means that in AUS nobody is going to get a grid penalty for exceeding engines/elements used (note that i'm not talking about changing a gearbox after qually).
but. round 2, and teams could already start using their 4th element - RIGHT?

so with still a full season to go, then wouldn't it be case of making sure that by race 3 you have used about 5 or even 6 engines/elements, which would set you free for the entirity for the 2018 season as of race 4 all the way to the last, iirc 20 races so you 'sacrifice' 3 races and have 17 races to go full on whilst your competitors might face their engine usage by 2/3 of the season, and you not need any grid penalty?

If i am right about this, then i'm rather expecting Toro Rosso to do exactly that, and if they do that, that doesn't actually mean that their new engine supplier is as bad as they were last year - it's just a smart tactic.

the only problem i think that excists in this case is that that must mean that the engine they'll run for the season start must be the same spec during the entire season.
meaning it has to be a beast right away, even if they tune it down through whatever means like software - if spec4 is what we'll see at AUS 2018, but they're actually intending to introduce spec5 'later on', then that kind of makes that benefit go out of the window as you'll then have for example 2 spec4 engines and 1 spec5 engine to do your season with, but if spec5 is not ready untill singapore, then you have like 4 spec4's to your disposal which are inferior to spec5.

follow me still?

am i assuming this all right or not?

oh and finally, oil burning like it was fuel is banned 2018 season, which will undoubtedly also 'negatively' impact both Ferrari and Mercedes, which in it's turn could make Renault and Honda catch up easier, and thus would further increase ToroRosso's chances.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

RonDennis
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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Zynerji wrote:
Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:53 pm
STR always seems to have a decent chassis. At least upper-midfield.

If the Honda turns out to be a beast after its very difficult teething phase and STR finds a few tricks in the installation, this could be a crazy long-shot for big points.

The real question will be reliability in 2018, for all finishers. No points early due to issues could spell HUGE points late when others take penalties.

I wonder what the line is on SkyBets for STR to take 4th place in the Constructors in 2018... :-?
Always? Their chassis was average at best this year. How in the hell do you expect STR to take 4th place, while you have to compete with giants like Ferrari, Mercedes, Red Bull, Renault and McLaren. They don't stand a chance. STR should be proud of if they beat Force India, Haas and Williams.

restless
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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Would be very revealing to compare 2017 vs 2018 TR chassis ... as dimensions.
Too many conflicting claims about Honda and Renault engines.
Anyone who has good full-size photos of current chassis?

techman
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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I wonder what the line is on SkyBets for STR to take 4th place in the Constructors in 2018... :-?
that will be interesting bet