2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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etusch
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:21 am
etusch wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:57 pm
Can you share with me link of it. And did you do same with other renault powered cars or only with redbull ?
It was in the McLaren thread last year. Simply put the McLaren is larger around the side pods where as the RB is norrower but slightly wider around what I would call it's waist just in front of the rear wing. As such cooling shouldn't be an issue.

I didn't need to compare to others as the comparisons with RB due to both being known to have tight packages around the PU's and the obvious comparisons of the both apparent superb chassis are well covered. If the RB can fit if in their body shape then there is no reason at all that McLaren cannot.


This has always been something that has made me chuckle when talking about McLaren wanting size 0 and how they would struggle with the Renault. The RB is hardly captain fatty. So we will see how the McLaren goes because it shouldn't anything other than a minor rejig (gearbox and mounting points aside) to fit the Renault in it.
I had a search at 2017 thread but I couldn't find. I understand last year as last season.
I think Redbull is not true reference for renault pu integration because Redbull can produce some parts for their needs. If I am wrong correct me, I remember I read something that says redbull redesigned engines exhaust for packing needs. Maybe it was 2016. I am not sure.
Of course Mclaren also can produce some parts but they have not got enough experience on renault engines

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:21 am
etusch wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:57 pm
Can you share with me link of it. And did you do same with other renault powered cars or only with redbull ?
It was in the McLaren thread last year. Simply put the McLaren is larger around the side pods where as the RB is norrower but slightly wider around what I would call it's waist just in front of the rear wing. As such cooling shouldn't be an issue.

I didn't need to compare to others as the comparisons with RB due to both being known to have tight packages around the PU's and the obvious comparisons of the both apparent superb chassis are well covered. If the RB can fit if in their body shape then there is no reason at all that McLaren cannot.


This has always been something that has made me chuckle when talking about McLaren wanting size 0 and how they would struggle with the Renault. The RB is hardly captain fatty. So we will see how the McLaren goes because it shouldn't anything other than a minor rejig (gearbox and mounting points aside) to fit the Renault in it.
I thought the size zero moniker is for the engine not the cooling and auxilliaries. I reckon that if the engine was not size zero the side pods would be even bigger!
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Restomaniac
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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Webber2011 wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:22 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:43 am
Zynerji wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:06 pm
Are you off setting the air scoop increase as well?

Cooling isn't just radiators, but oil coolers as well. The speculation has always been that the larger upper airbox housed channels that cooled other items to keep the side pods smaller.
Very true but if McLaren have found a way to get there cooling from larger side pods than others in their systems then that's us up to them. It surely doesn't matter how you get the cool air in and working as I doubt the cooling systems care a jot where it comes from as long as it's there.
I would be surprised if it's that easy, I reckon it matters a great deal how you get the cool air in there
Sure, the pu might not care as long as it's getting the right amount.

Big sidepods v's big overhead intake v's a mix of both will surely make a huge difference when it comes to designing the aero though ?

So to say it doesn't matter how the cool air gets in and working doesn't really take into account a lot of other design factors
That's my point though.

McLaren have gone down the huge side pods route. If the same amount of air is being used then that's up to them how they get it.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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etusch wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:29 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:21 am
etusch wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:57 pm
Can you share with me link of it. And did you do same with other renault powered cars or only with redbull ?
It was in the McLaren thread last year. Simply put the McLaren is larger around the side pods where as the RB is norrower but slightly wider around what I would call it's waist just in front of the rear wing. As such cooling shouldn't be an issue.

I didn't need to compare to others as the comparisons with RB due to both being known to have tight packages around the PU's and the obvious comparisons of the both apparent superb chassis are well covered. If the RB can fit if in their body shape then there is no reason at all that McLaren cannot.


This has always been something that has made me chuckle when talking about McLaren wanting size 0 and how they would struggle with the Renault. The RB is hardly captain fatty. So we will see how the McLaren goes because it shouldn't anything other than a minor rejig (gearbox and mounting points aside) to fit the Renault in it.
I had a search at 2017 thread but I couldn't find. I understand last year as last season.
I think Redbull is not true reference for renault pu integration because Redbull can produce some parts for their needs. If I am wrong correct me, I remember I read something that says redbull redesigned engines exhaust for packing needs. Maybe it was 2016. I am not sure.
Of course Mclaren also can produce some parts but they have not got enough experience on renault engines
McLaren are as big a manufacturer as anyone. Making their own parts isn't as issue.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:20 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:21 am
etusch wrote:
Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:57 pm
Can you share with me link of it. And did you do same with other renault powered cars or only with redbull ?
It was in the McLaren thread last year. Simply put the McLaren is larger around the side pods where as the RB is norrower but slightly wider around what I would call it's waist just in front of the rear wing. As such cooling shouldn't be an issue.

I didn't need to compare to others as the comparisons with RB due to both being known to have tight packages around the PU's and the obvious comparisons of the both apparent superb chassis are well covered. If the RB can fit if in their body shape then there is no reason at all that McLaren cannot.


This has always been something that has made me chuckle when talking about McLaren wanting size 0 and how they would struggle with the Renault. The RB is hardly captain fatty. So we will see how the McLaren goes because it shouldn't anything other than a minor rejig (gearbox and mounting points aside) to fit the Renault in it.
I thought the size zero moniker is for the engine not the cooling and auxilliaries. I reckon that if the engine was not size zero the side pods would be even bigger!
Well we will soon see.

aral
aral
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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This thread is about the forthcoming 2018 STR-Honda, and once again, the sheer mention of Honda has some people worked up. Now we are discussing the Mclaren as opposed to the STR in 2017. It makes not an iota of difference to the 2018 STR. It will be designed (not by armchair experts) around the PU. Their engineers know what the cooling requirements are and I reckon that they will be able to sort out any packaging problems.
PLEASE stick to topic....forget McLaren. Forget 2017.

RonDennis
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:44 am
Webber2011 wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:22 am
Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:43 am
Very true but if McLaren have found a way to get there cooling from larger side pods than others in their systems then that's us up to them. It surely doesn't matter how you get the cool air in and working as I doubt the cooling systems care a jot where it comes from as long as it's there.
I would be surprised if it's that easy, I reckon it matters a great deal how you get the cool air in there
Sure, the pu might not care as long as it's getting the right amount.

Big sidepods v's big overhead intake v's a mix of both will surely make a huge difference when it comes to designing the aero though ?

So to say it doesn't matter how the cool air gets in and working doesn't really take into account a lot of other design factors
That's my point though.

McLaren have gone down the huge side pods route. If the same amount of air is being used then that's up to them how they get it.
The Honda engine requires bigger radiators.

ncassi22
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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Were the pods wider just due to cooling requirements? I.t.o tub design the compressor/pipes/oil-tank etc have to go somewhere. Instead of pushing the engine back maybe they widened the tub to accommodate the full 105kg fuel tank - pushing the coolers further out. If STR don't modify the tub and they want to run the same aero, they'll have to push the engine back, influencing gearbox design as reported. Just speculating, but it would be interesting if we see a b-spec car by mid season as pushing the engine that far back can't be good for vehicle dynamics.

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etusch
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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Just because Boullier said thinking Honda need big radiator is not right thinking. If there would not be mercedes pu we will see ferrari as best pu. This is something like that
So bigger radiators mean maybe just what only Mclaren achieved. In the same time pu design force them to make all from sidepods. Now renault design force them to make some cooling from top air intake hole. Then you will say renault engine needs smaller cooling parts.

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Wazari
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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RonDennis wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:14 pm

The Honda engine requires bigger radiators.
Well, that's a problem then.....having physically seen both the McLaren's and STR's radiators up close, the STR's radiators alone were definitely physically larger in dimension.
If you can make the opposition flinch, you have already won.

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diffuser
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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etusch wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:05 pm
In 2018 drivers will only be allowed three combustion engines, turbos, and MGU-Hs, and only two MGU-Ks, control electronics and energy stores for the 21 races
MGU-K, ce and es allowed only two. I did not know that until now. It looks like It will be really harder for the manufacturers and for the teams .
For example if renault can not fix its MGU-K issue it will be harder for them. Only mersedes will keep advantage
Just to be clear, Renault never had any MGU-K issues in 2017 as they never ran the 2017 model. The 2017 model MGU-K ,which is lighter and more powerfull, never made it out of testing. There is no indication that they would have problems making it throught the season with the 2016 MGU-K.

RonDennis
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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Wazari wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:38 pm
RonDennis wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:14 pm

The Honda engine requires bigger radiators.
Well, that's a problem then.....having physically seen both the McLaren's and STR's radiators up close, the STR's radiators alone were definitely physically larger in dimension.
Further explanation from the McLaren director: "We are not radically changing the car, the 2018 will be 100% an evolution of the current. The radiators required by the Renault unit are smaller than those of Honda, making our aerodynamic set easier. We need to redesign the exchange. I can not tell you anything else, "Boullier told GloboSport.com reporter.

The need for cooling the French power unit is less than that used by Honda. The implication of the smaller radiator is the freedom granted to designers to design lower and more premature sides, with significant gain in aerodynamics, such as less drag and greater airflow to the rear airfoil, another source of aerodynamic pressure generation.

carisi2k
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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So Renault did have mgu-k issues in 2017 because the new unit was so unreliable that a hacked together 2016 version had to be used which added 5kg or so to all Renault powered cars. It appears they are still having issues with this 2017/18 mgu-k because it is still not working on the 2018 engine.

carisi2k
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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RonDennis wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:01 am
Wazari wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:38 pm
RonDennis wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:14 pm

The Honda engine requires bigger radiators.
Well, that's a problem then.....having physically seen both the McLaren's and STR's radiators up close, the STR's radiators alone were definitely physically larger in dimension.
Further explanation from the McLaren director: "We are not radically changing the car, the 2018 will be 100% an evolution of the current. The radiators required by the Renault unit are smaller than those of Honda, making our aerodynamic set easier. We need to redesign the exchange. I can not tell you anything else, "Boullier told GloboSport.com reporter.

The need for cooling the French power unit is less than that used by Honda. The implication of the smaller radiator is the freedom granted to designers to design lower and more premature sides, with significant gain in aerodynamics, such as less drag and greater airflow to the rear airfoil, another source of aerodynamic pressure generation.
All this says is that the 2018 Renault PU requires smaller radiators then the 2017 Honda PU. It doesn't say anything about the 2018 Honda PU which might also use smaller radiators then the 2017 Honda PU.

GhostF1
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

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carisi2k wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:07 am
RonDennis wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:01 am
Wazari wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:38 pm

Well, that's a problem then.....having physically seen both the McLaren's and STR's radiators up close, the STR's radiators alone were definitely physically larger in dimension.
Further explanation from the McLaren director: "We are not radically changing the car, the 2018 will be 100% an evolution of the current. The radiators required by the Renault unit are smaller than those of Honda, making our aerodynamic set easier. We need to redesign the exchange. I can not tell you anything else, "Boullier told GloboSport.com reporter.

The need for cooling the French power unit is less than that used by Honda. The implication of the smaller radiator is the freedom granted to designers to design lower and more premature sides, with significant gain in aerodynamics, such as less drag and greater airflow to the rear airfoil, another source of aerodynamic pressure generation.
All this says is that the 2018 Renault PU requires smaller radiators then the 2017 Honda PU. It doesn't say anything about the 2018 Honda PU which might also use smaller radiators then the 2017 Honda PU.
Precisely, not to mention I almost want to put money on the fact the upper air intake will swell dramatically in size with Renault (as seen with every Renault powered team in 2017). That alone would basically cancel this "smaller side radiator" stuff Boullier is spouting.
So this "radiator size" rubbish and how it will affect STR should not be seen taken as seriously as people are implying. In this era, Renault have not been identified as packaging masters or massively superior in cooling either, so why its suddenly becoming commonplace to rubbish the Honda's physical size and cooling package in comparison is beyond me. The only reason it's being fuelled is from people latching to one sentence from the racing director of a now competitor...
We could also latch on to James Key (STR) saying, and I quote, "The Honda is a very nicely packaged engine, we are happy we've got it".
But what he also said, which I'm sure McLaren also faced but Boullier omitted is ths "but you must remember we have already done a lot of the preparation under the assumption we were continuing with Renault, both are completely different architectures, so there is a bit of work to be done to revise the design".