2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

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ALO_Power
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by ALO_Power » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:07 pm

Meanwhile, everything indicates that Red Bull will switch to Honda for 2019 so if that happens I guess it will confirm that ditching Honda was a mistake. I bet the chassis would be even better since they didn't seem to have such traction issues in 2017 which is probably due to better integration/packaging.

Big Tea
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Big Tea » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:18 pm

ALO_Power wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:07 pm
Meanwhile, everything indicates that Red Bull will switch to Honda for 2019 so if that happens I guess it will confirm that ditching Honda was a mistake. I bet the chassis would be even better since they didn't seem to have such traction issues in 2017 which is probably due to better integration/packaging.

I was as anti- ditching Honda as it is possible to be last year. But during the winter I realised in fact it was the right thing to do. Maybe not for the right reasons though. Mclaren had Honda as a crutch and layed the blame off on them for everything. GP2 engine, we could be fighting for the title etc. Now there is not bogie man, they have to front up and get things sorted for them selves. Is it working? not sure, but it has cut the pathways in half.

It was the right decision irrespective of how they came to it, or which is the better engine. It drew a line and said, right, from here on in its YOU.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

muramasa
90
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by muramasa » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:32 pm

  
 
> Brazil 2017 (November 2017)

FP2 speed trap [PU in FP mode] : 336kmph
Quali speed trap [PU in Quali mode]: 311kmph
Race: FA 8th, stuck behind Massa til checkered flag


Yusuke Hasegawa

"The car carries too much downforce. For sure you can gain overall laptime that way, but in the race condition you cannot overtake, also you are risking your defense. Mexico was good example, we were within DRS range of a car in front, hence we did not get passed easily, even by Hamilton. Also we were able to close the gap rapidly towards Kevin Magnussen. But with such heavy df setting, you cannot overtake on the straight even if being within DRS range. Not possible to overtake even if you are faster by 1sec/lap, I suppose."

"In the progress from spec 3.5 to 3.8, the PU contributed to the laptime gain of about 0.4sec/lap on average. The relative improvement in straight end speed is exactly where the time gain comes from, I reckon."

"Of course we discussed, many times. We proposed going lighter on downforce over and over. Sure it is McLaren who determine the setting, but even then we kept making the proposal. But we were not listened/accepted. The team prioritizes the one that should yield faster comprehensive lap time, also the amount of downforce affects the car stability. Let's say, even at/in such places/condition where the drivers of Vettel and Hamilton caliber are spinning, we never spin. Not that I'm criticizing the team, it's just that that's what the team's direction is, but it's the philosophy of "lead and finish" so to speak, so there is no problem that way as long as you can get pole position.."


An ANONYMOUS Honda engineer quoted

"I do not consider that's the best compromise point to be the fastest possible. This time, even Mercedes and Ferrari are spinning and going off track, right? On the other hand McLaren is solid and never goes off track. Then at one point on Friday we took off some df and Stoffel spun on T2, then it went like "see, it's undriveable this way as expected". Even top teams are pushing aggressively and shedding downforce to the limit like that, but McLaren is putting good downforce to make the car friendly for drivers."

"McLaren is a team that has such engineering policy traditionally. Fulfill and respond to drivers' demands/complaints no matter what, that's how their policy is like. As a result of that, you end up with "car that's cozy to drive", instead of "car that's tricky but fast". It's a team that cannot tell to drivers "this setting is faster and that's the best we can give, so the rest you do your best on track". "


f1fokuho brazil '17 (print)
https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... /index.php
(translation by me)





> January/February 2018

Tim Goss

"So much of producing a great F1 car these days is giving the driver a car that they can exploit,"
"There is no point in giving them a car with very peaky performance."
"What we are trying to do is give the driver something that operates very well over a broad operating envelope."

"So our approach these days is very much about giving the driver something they can trust and work with, and peaky load is in our view not the way to produce a quick aerodynamic package for the driver, or vehicle dynamics change."

"Even trimming a bit of downforce off the car and trimming to a lower wing level, we were still not going to get our car to the point where we have that raceability in a straight line,"
"So our approach has been to always go for the quickest laptime and our tactics coming to a race weekend were to qualify as well as we can, and then aim to defend that position based on laptime. In some races that was extremely difficult.

"Rather than put sticking plasters to try to cope with the fact that we had an underpowered engine, what we really wanted to do is develop the best car and assume the engine is going to come."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... r-1001974/




> February/March 2018

James Key

"I don't know what Renault have done this year but we had a good feel for where the Renault was last year and at least from the numbers you see, which you always have to treat carefully because they are from different dynos etcetera, it's not so far off,"

"Not nearly as far as was being suggested last year actually. It was probably pretty close to Renault towards the end of the season."

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... ult-battle

"We are designing the car based on the same amount/level of downforce and drag that is considered to make the car the fastest on simulation. As a matter of fact, Honda's power is not that far off from Renault."

"Last year, headlines of various kinds of articles appeared across media, but it turned out that such was not the reality at all. I don't know what McLaren was thinking, but as far as we are concerned, at this point there is no need to alter our original aero philosophy, also there is no way Honda's power was inferior as much as it has been widely claimed.

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... /index.php
(translation by me)




> Bahrain 2018

Eric Boullier

"The balance is fine, obviously there’s a lack of grip, that’s my conclusion for the poor performance, but they don’t report anything wrong."

http://classic.autosport.com/news/repor ... ostpopular




> China 2018

Eric Boullier

"The car is still very balanced,"

"If you listen to the drivers they are happy with the balance of the car. Whatever you try and setup the car reacts accordingly so a bit more understeer, less understeer, more oversteer, one tenth better here, one tenth slower here so I think we have a good understanding of the car.

"I think the car has no nastiness, if you want, in terms of the design. We just need to make the car faster around the corner and in the straight line."

http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/23241 ... ough-mcl33




> Canada 2018

Stoffel Vandoorne

"It's a bit bizarre. Yesterday we had a good rhythm and we didn't use the hypersofts in FP2.
"We thought there was a chance to get to Q3. From the start of qualifying we didn't have the performance to get there.

"There was nothing particularly wrong with the car. The balance was good. Nothing major to comment. We were just lacking pace."

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/136641


Fernando Alonso

“Yesterday we felt quite competitive – the car was feeling bright and we were fast - but unfortunately today we were uncompetitive."
“We felt it in FP3 and we confirmed it in qualifying. "


Eric Boullier

"The car has a weakness which we have pointed out, in low-speed corners with a lack of grip,"
"Here, you only have low-speed corners. We knew it coming in. To compensate for this lack of low-speed grip, we have to carry more wing, which means more drag. So the best compromise for our speed level is to run more drag."

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/head ... anada.html
Last edited by muramasa on Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:28 pm, edited 7 times in total.

McMika98
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Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:40 pm

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by McMika98 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:07 pm

Erik Bullcrap Bouiller, constantly lying and trying to fool the public. The pics clearly show they had much reduced rear wing in Canada to be competitive in race. No wonder they suck in Quali but are ok in race now by reducing the drag penalty.
People saying they have diffuser inconsistency at low speed, seriously after 4 years of developong all of a sudden they cant control airflow at low speed, how do they control at high speeds.
Next race will again reveal more about the car and how it performs on low, mid and high speed corners

rogazilla
17
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:35 pm

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by rogazilla » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:40 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:18 pm
ALO_Power wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:07 pm
Meanwhile, everything indicates that Red Bull will switch to Honda for 2019 so if that happens I guess it will confirm that ditching Honda was a mistake. I bet the chassis would be even better since they didn't seem to have such traction issues in 2017 which is probably due to better integration/packaging.

I was as anti- ditching Honda as it is possible to be last year. But during the winter I realised in fact it was the right thing to do. Maybe not for the right reasons though. Mclaren had Honda as a crutch and layed the blame off on them for everything. GP2 engine, we could be fighting for the title etc. Now there is not bogie man, they have to front up and get things sorted for them selves. Is it working? not sure, but it has cut the pathways in half.

It was the right decision irrespective of how they came to it, or which is the better engine. It drew a line and said, right, from here on in its YOU.
I have to agree and now believe the separation is the best thing for both parties. In Honda, McLaren will not budge on space or time for it to develop the PU the way they wanted. If they have stuck together, Honda probably still have an engine that's not up to par and McLaren would still stuck to its Aero Philosophy and blame the PU. This is the only way where TR is allowing Honda room to design the PU be it weight, dimension the way Honda wants. McLaren on the other hand can focus on getting the Aero/suspension fixed.

zeph
58
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Location: Los Angeles

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by zeph » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:56 pm

While McLaren and Honda had come to the end of a workable relationship and a split was probably best for all involved, I do think McLaren ultimately screwed the pooch here.
With the benefit of hindsight, they should have sat out their contract with Mercedes and give Honda an extra year to develop (Honda knew they wouldn't be ready for 2015, but were pressured into entering a year early by McLaren).
It certainly looks like Honda will finally deliver the goods and if RBR scoop them up and they start winning next season, I know who's going to be kicking their own behinds.

godlameroso
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Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by godlameroso » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:11 pm

zeph wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:56 pm
While McLaren and Honda had come to the end of a workable relationship and a split was probably best for all involved, I do think McLaren ultimately screwed the pooch here.
With the benefit of hindsight, they should have sat out their contract with Mercedes and give Honda an extra year to develop (Honda knew they wouldn't be ready for 2015, but were pressured into entering a year early by McLaren).
It certainly looks like Honda will finally deliver the goods and if RBR scoop them up and they start winning next season, I know who's going to be kicking their own behinds.
I've been saying that they should have stuck together since 2015, but that's water under the bridge. Oh well, lets hope the new aero changes gives some extra performance. French GP starts with a mid high speed chicane, the McLaren should be good here. The next corner is heavy braking for a right left chicane(this track is already sounding bad for MCL), next is a slow right, but the exit has the car pointing relatively straight so probably not too much time lost there. The following right hander is a very rear traction limited corner, and getting the downforce working right away is critical here, again they'll struggle here which is terrible because it's flat out from here. Then the braking for the following chicane will be difficult as will the exit.(God I hate chicanes at the end of turns)

From there it's flat through the high speed right, maybe we get passing into the following right, there's multiple lines but only one fast one. From there on there's no passing as it's all low/mid speed corners, and the McLaren may struggle as you really have to dive bomb the corners to get the lap time.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

NL_Fer
59
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by NL_Fer » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:46 am

I was thinking about this also, without a split chasis weaknesses would never be found. Just, did Fernando promote it for this reason, to force them focus on the chassis?

makecry
39
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by makecry » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:54 am

NL_Fer wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:46 am
I was thinking about this also, without a split chasis weaknesses would never be found. Just, did Fernando promote it for this reason, to force them focus on the chassis?
We don't know if last year's car had the weakness that this year's car does. MCL32 was very very good on corner entry and braking and in low speed corners (see Mexico last year), this year's car is losing most of it's time under braking and corner entry and low speed corner.

techman
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Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:25 am

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by techman » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:27 am

Brazil 2017 (November 2017)

FP2 speed trap [PU in FP mode] : 336kmph
Quali speed trap [PU in Quali mode]: 311kmph
Race: FA 8th, stuck behind Massa til checkered flag

Yusuke Hasegawa

"The car carries too much downforce. For sure you can gain overall laptime that way, but in the race condition you cannot overtake, also you are risking your defense. Mexico was good example, we were within DRS range of a car in front, hence we did not get passed easily, even by Hamilton. Also we were able to close the gap rapidly towards Kevin Magnussen. But with such heavy df setting, you cannot overtake on the straight even if being within DRS range. Not possible to overtake even if you are faster by 1sec/lap, I suppose."

"In the progress from spec 3.5 to 3.8, the PU contributed to the laptime gain of about 0.4sec/lap on average. The relative improvement in straight end speed is exactly where the time gain comes from, I reckon."

"Of course we discussed, many times. We proposed going lighter on downforce over and over. Sure it is McLaren who determine the setting, but even then we kept making the proposal. But we were not listened/accepted. The team prioritizes the one that should yield faster comprehensive lap time, also the amount of downforce affects the car stability. Let's say, even at/in such places/condition where the drivers of Vettel and Hamilton caliber are spinning, we never spin. Not that I'm criticizing the team, it's just that that's what the team's direction is, but it's the philosophy of "lead and finish" so to speak, so there is no problem that way as long as you can get pole position.."


An ANONYMOUS Honda engineer quoted

"I do not consider that's the best compromise point to be the fastest possible. This time, even Mercedes and Ferrari are spinning and going off track, right? On the other hand McLaren is solid and never goes off track. Then at one point on Friday we took off some df and Stoffel spun on T2, then it went like "see, it's undriveable this way as expected". Even top teams are pushing aggressively and shedding downforce to the limit like that, but McLaren is putting good downforce to make the car friendly for drivers."

"McLaren is a team that has such engineering policy traditionally. Fulfill and respond to drivers' demands/complaints no matter what, that's how their policy is like. As a result of that, you end up with "car that's cozy to drive", instead of "car that's tricky but fast". It's a team that cannot tell to drivers "this setting is faster and that's the best we can give, so the rest you do your best on track". "


f1fokuho brazil '17 (print)
https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... /index.php
(translation by me)
We don't know if last year's car had the weakness that this year's car does. MCL32 was very very good on corner entry and braking and in low speed corners (see Mexico last year), this year's car is losing most of it's time under braking and corner entry and low speed corner.
it is pretty clear mclaren never listened to honda advice. what they wanted is a car that handles well so they can keep boasting how good their car is in corners so they added maximum downforce and lost on the straight.
and they always knew they can point the finger at the scapegoat engine if they are overaken on the straight. this season they cant do it as they are running the same engine with renault and redbull, a direct comparision and now their eyes are wide open. mcl32 was equally bad but hide behind honda now it just getting exposed. thank goodness ,honda was kicked out by mclaren, it now time to focus of make the chassis and aero work for mclaren

Hammerfist
4
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:18 am

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Hammerfist » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:47 am

muramasa wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:32 pm
  
 
> Brazil 2017 (November 2017)

FP2 speed trap [PU in FP mode] : 336kmph
Quali speed trap [PU in Quali mode]: 311kmph
Race: FA 8th, stuck behind Massa til checkered flag


Yusuke Hasegawa

"The car carries too much downforce. For sure you can gain overall laptime that way, but in the race condition you cannot overtake, also you are risking your defense. Mexico was good example, we were within DRS range of a car in front, hence we did not get passed easily, even by Hamilton. Also we were able to close the gap rapidly towards Kevin Magnussen. But with such heavy df setting, you cannot overtake on the straight even if being within DRS range. Not possible to overtake even if you are faster by 1sec/lap, I suppose."

"In the progress from spec 3.5 to 3.8, the PU contributed to the laptime gain of about 0.4sec/lap on average. The relative improvement in straight end speed is exactly where the time gain comes from, I reckon."

"Of course we discussed, many times. We proposed going lighter on downforce over and over. Sure it is McLaren who determine the setting, but even then we kept making the proposal. But we were not listened/accepted. The team prioritizes the one that should yield faster comprehensive lap time, also the amount of downforce affects the car stability. Let's say, even at/in such places/condition where the drivers of Vettel and Hamilton caliber are spinning, we never spin. Not that I'm criticizing the team, it's just that that's what the team's direction is, but it's the philosophy of "lead and finish" so to speak, so there is no problem that way as long as you can get pole position.."


An ANONYMOUS Honda engineer quoted

"I do not consider that's the best compromise point to be the fastest possible. This time, even Mercedes and Ferrari are spinning and going off track, right? On the other hand McLaren is solid and never goes off track. Then at one point on Friday we took off some df and Stoffel spun on T2, then it went like "see, it's undriveable this way as expected". Even top teams are pushing aggressively and shedding downforce to the limit like that, but McLaren is putting good downforce to make the car friendly for drivers."

"McLaren is a team that has such engineering policy traditionally. Fulfill and respond to drivers' demands/complaints no matter what, that's how their policy is like. As a result of that, you end up with "car that's cozy to drive", instead of "car that's tricky but fast". It's a team that cannot tell to drivers "this setting is faster and that's the best we can give, so the rest you do your best on track". "


f1fokuho brazil '17 (print)
https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... /index.php
(translation by me)





> January/February 2018

Tim Goss

"So much of producing a great F1 car these days is giving the driver a car that they can exploit,"
"There is no point in giving them a car with very peaky performance."
"What we are trying to do is give the driver something that operates very well over a broad operating envelope."

"So our approach these days is very much about giving the driver something they can trust and work with, and peaky load is in our view not the way to produce a quick aerodynamic package for the driver, or vehicle dynamics change."

"Even trimming a bit of downforce off the car and trimming to a lower wing level, we were still not going to get our car to the point where we have that raceability in a straight line,"
"So our approach has been to always go for the quickest laptime and our tactics coming to a race weekend were to qualify as well as we can, and then aim to defend that position based on laptime. In some races that was extremely difficult.

"Rather than put sticking plasters to try to cope with the fact that we had an underpowered engine, what we really wanted to do is develop the best car and assume the engine is going to come."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... r-1001974/




> February/March 2018

James Key

"I don't know what Renault have done this year but we had a good feel for where the Renault was last year and at least from the numbers you see, which you always have to treat carefully because they are from different dynos etcetera, it's not so far off,"

"Not nearly as far as was being suggested last year actually. It was probably pretty close to Renault towards the end of the season."

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/ ... ult-battle

"We are designing the car based on the same amount/level of downforce and drag that is considered to make the car the fastest on simulation. As a matter of fact, Honda's power is not that far off from Renault."

"Last year, headlines of various kinds of articles appeared across media, but it turned out that such was not the reality at all. I don't know what McLaren was thinking, but as far as we are concerned, at this point there is no need to alter our original aero philosophy, also there is no way Honda's power was inferior as much as it has been widely claimed.

https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... /index.php
(translation by me)




> Bahrain 2018

Eric Boullier

"The balance is fine, obviously there’s a lack of grip, that’s my conclusion for the poor performance, but they don’t report anything wrong."

http://classic.autosport.com/news/repor ... ostpopular




> China 2018

Eric Boullier

"The car is still very balanced,"

"If you listen to the drivers they are happy with the balance of the car. Whatever you try and setup the car reacts accordingly so a bit more understeer, less understeer, more oversteer, one tenth better here, one tenth slower here so I think we have a good understanding of the car.

"I think the car has no nastiness, if you want, in terms of the design. We just need to make the car faster around the corner and in the straight line."

http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/23241 ... ough-mcl33




> Canada 2018

Stoffel Vandoorne

"It's a bit bizarre. Yesterday we had a good rhythm and we didn't use the hypersofts in FP2.
"We thought there was a chance to get to Q3. From the start of qualifying we didn't have the performance to get there.

"There was nothing particularly wrong with the car. The balance was good. Nothing major to comment. We were just lacking pace."

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/136641


Fernando Alonso

“Yesterday we felt quite competitive – the car was feeling bright and we were fast - but unfortunately today we were uncompetitive."
“We felt it in FP3 and we confirmed it in qualifying. "


Eric Boullier

"The car has a weakness which we have pointed out, in low-speed corners with a lack of grip,"
"Here, you only have low-speed corners. We knew it coming in. To compensate for this lack of low-speed grip, we have to carry more wing, which means more drag. So the best compromise for our speed level is to run more drag."

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/head ... anada.html
Fascinating quotes here. It's so obvious now that Mclaren had the wrong philosophy all along. The thing is, I'm not sure if they will ever get the right philosophy. when they had the Merc engine they were still far off. With Renault they are still far off. There needs to be changes in personnel, and they need that major sponsor to bring in some funds. Otherwise I'm not sure we'll ever see improvement from that team. The top 3 teams are too good and too resourceful at the moment.

diffuser
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Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by diffuser » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:50 am

Telemetry 2017 Spain, Alo, Ver, Vet
Image

makecry
39
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 9:33 pm

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by makecry » Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:58 am

diffuser wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:50 am
Telemetry 2017 Spain, Alo, Ver, Vet
https://image.ibb.co/cAG1LJ/2017_spain.png
The last sector, Vettel has to take the corners at lower speed than Alonso, engine power doesn't matter too much there but yeah some people will still try and convince us otherwise about MCL32. The people who come in here and talk about McLaren running too much downforce to make Honda look bad are like people from /r/t_d who still can't let go of Hillary a year and half after the election.

NL_Fer
59
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by NL_Fer » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:51 am

Could it be the design of the 2018 McL/Renault gearbox, that was rushed and flawed, causing bad mechanical grip? Who know’s, maybe they already finished another McL/Honda gearbox, before they decided to switch to Renault.

techman
-16
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:25 am

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by techman » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:58 am

i mean there can be excuses but look mclaren are boasting how good their technical and aero department is . so it should not be a problem to figure it out. personally i did not believe most of their words unlike some here.