2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
McMika98
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by McMika98 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:27 am

Alonso Fan wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:48 am
Actually it can be quite common. Red bull started last year with the same issues after a blazing 2016
Lol seriously. There was a radical aero change in 2017 with the wing and rears to help overtaking. By barcelona RedBull and other teams had it figured. Thats the key Barcelona, most teams have yotta bytes of historical data for Barcelona so any correlation issues can be fixed there. Exhibit FI who were nowhere in testing with new car and no funds but now have caught up the midfield.
The quicker you accept that Mclaren are freefalling and back of the midfield pack, the lesser the pain.

McMika98
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by McMika98 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:29 am

https://www.f1technical.net/news/21628

Coincidentally i accidentally clicked on this article in this forum. U cant make it up.

Big Tea
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Big Tea » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:29 am

BrunoH wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:20 am
im just waiting for Fernando to shout on the radio : GP2 chassis, GP2 Chassis .
Alonso is part of the problem.

(before you all stone me read on please)

He has given Mclaren the impression of having upto half a second they do not have and 3 or 4 positions up the points to where they would be. They are basing the position they see themselves in on Alonso's results. not Van Dorne's which is where they really are.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

Alonso Fan
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Alonso Fan » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:34 am

McMika98 wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:27 am
Alonso Fan wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:48 am
Actually it can be quite common. Red bull started last year with the same issues after a blazing 2016
Lol seriously. There was a radical aero change in 2017 with the wing and rears to help overtaking. By barcelona RedBull and other teams had it figured. Thats the key Barcelona, most teams have yotta bytes of historical data for Barcelona so any correlation issues can be fixed there. Exhibit FI who were nowhere in testing with new car and no funds but now have caught up the midfield.
The quicker you accept that Mclaren are freefalling and back of the midfield pack, the lesser the pain.
Red bull only sorted out their issues properly at Singapore
MVRC - SHM Racing

Singabule
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Singabule » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:48 am

Yes, give them more time. And time flies isnt? As an mclaren (and honda) fan i feel sorry for them, but look like their management problem make everything more difficult to solve

kfrantzios
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Joined: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:19 pm
Location: Greece

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by kfrantzios » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:17 am

Big Tea wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:29 am
BrunoH wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:20 am
im just waiting for Fernando to shout on the radio : GP2 chassis, GP2 Chassis .
Alonso is part of the problem.

(before you all stone me read on please)

He has given Mclaren the impression of having upto half a second they do not have and 3 or 4 positions up the points to where they would be. They are basing the position they see themselves in on Alonso's results. not Van Dorne's which is where they really are.
Oh not this crap again... lets get Yuji Ide to see where the car REALLY is...

Big Tea
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Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Big Tea » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:22 am

kfrantzios wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:17 am
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:29 am
BrunoH wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:20 am
im just waiting for Fernando to shout on the radio : GP2 chassis, GP2 Chassis .
Alonso is part of the problem.

(before you all stone me read on please)

He has given Mclaren the impression of having upto half a second they do not have and 3 or 4 positions up the points to where they would be. They are basing the position they see themselves in on Alonso's results. not Van Dorne's which is where they really are.
Oh not this crap again... lets get Yuji Ide to see where the car REALLY is...
Well at least offer a counter argument?
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

Manoah2u
377
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:07 pm

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Manoah2u » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:27 am

let's get things really rolling and bring on some tinfoil stuff......

could there be any possibilty of sabotage?

Whitmarsh -somehow- still works at Mclaren despite getting the boot a couple years ago and nobody knowing what happened to him (i remember that discussion here),
Ron came back and there was a lot of discomfort top to bottom, Ron supposedly tried some sort of coup with (chinese?) investors and then was shown the exit, that VW guy
got hired and immediately sacked, Zak got appointed, Bouillier still there (somehow), arguments with Honda, expected, calculated results stay out both from Honda aswell
as Mclaren, Honda is out yet no change at Mclaren, and now there is a employee riot which was also 'prompted' by sacking Tim Goss....and now the chaos is complete @ Mclaren.
In any case, the environment is surely to blame, it's a gigantic mess @ woking, that much is clear.
At the same time, how can - after all those years - the team still be so far from anything 'good' ?

I know it's reaching, sure. Just a thought pattern i'd be curious to see into.
There have been several mentions about the circumstances @ Ferrari too before, regarding Mattiacci for example.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

techman
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by techman » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:35 am

boullier lacks leadership qualities and listening to constructive criticism is a must. i remember once Arai talking to the press , said that mclaren lacks mechanical grip. Eric ridiculed him , but instead he should have listened to him. if the criticism is constructive why not listen, it only help. but eric simply dismissed as lack of power issue. i guess we know the real truth now.

mwillems
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by mwillems » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:10 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:50 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:46 am
godlameroso wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:51 pm
So they admit the problem is aero. Funny.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mcla ... g-1047361/
Yes. I made this call and was bashed across head for it. Glad that Zak finally wiped the BS on the windscreen away.
The thing is the car is pretty damn good aero wise save for a crucial detail, except that fixing this detail has huge knock on effects, so they can't just haphazardly throw parts at it. It's worth a lot of time if they get it working, maybe you take issue with PP's methodical approach, and maybe you're right, they just need to be a little more adventurous with their design in this area. Obviously when it comes to design you are always guessing, but you try to minimize the risks, it's easier to take risks with unlimited resources. With limited resources you have to bank on sure things, sure thing number 1 is iteration, a distant second is exploiting generalized principles to guide development, and number 3 is a complete radical overhaul which is a sign of desperation. No self respecting narcissist would dare take option 3, but option 3 may be what's needed.
Personally I have never ruled out Aero issues, or in fact ruled out anything. It's obvious that aero is costing them a lot of time. But the way they ran the suspension so hard in Canada in comparison to other teams, as well as apparently needing more downforce still suggests top me they also have a suspension problem. I also don't put it past them to not be honest and clear with the full facts, or to mention all the issues. Of course it is possible that the behaviour of the diffuser forces them to push the car closer to the ground and for it to require a stiffer setup to work, but still it seems off to me.

Other teams appear to not have a dissimilar bargeboard setup, or have had, to us, yet they do not suffer the same issues.

Can this be explained?

PinkFloydPulse
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by PinkFloydPulse » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:15 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:22 am
kfrantzios wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:17 am
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:29 am


Alonso is part of the problem.

(before you all stone me read on please)

He has given Mclaren the impression of having upto half a second they do not have and 3 or 4 positions up the points to where they would be. They are basing the position they see themselves in on Alonso's results. not Van Dorne's which is where they really are.
Oh not this crap again... lets get Yuji Ide to see where the car REALLY is...
Well at least offer a counter argument?
You can't say that a driver is a problem just because he is that good and puts the car on places it should not be at... Then let's just have bad drivers then and that will be the measure for success... Alonso is not the problem, he's the reason McL are not dead last in the standings. McLarens tunnel vision, always focusing on Alonso results instead of Van Dorne results, and not reacting quickly enough is the problem...
Team Fernando!

adrianjordan
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Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:34 am
Location: West Yorkshire, England

Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by adrianjordan » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:43 pm

Big Tea wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:22 am
kfrantzios wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:17 am
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:29 am


Alonso is part of the problem.

(before you all stone me read on please)

He has given Mclaren the impression of having upto half a second they do not have and 3 or 4 positions up the points to where they would be. They are basing the position they see themselves in on Alonso's results. not Van Dorne's which is where they really are.
Oh not this crap again... lets get Yuji Ide to see where the car REALLY is...
Well at least offer a counter argument?
Common sense. Physics. That fact that Alonso cannot make the car go faster than it is capable of going. Sure, he's faster than Vandoorne (not sure who this Van Dorne person is lol) and faster than a lot of other drivers and is capable of driving around problems to an extent, but let's make this clear - the car can only go as fast as it is capable of, therefore Alonso cannot make it go faster than that. If they had 2 drivers of Alonso's quality in the team would you be arguing that they should hire a slower driver in order to see what the "true pace" of the car is? Is the true pace of the Sauber what Leclerc is doing, or what Ericsson is doing? What about the Mercedes? Is Hamilton making it faster than it really is an the true pace is what Stroll would manage in that car?

The only time you can argue about a team not showing the "true pace" of the car due to drivers is where they have two slow drivers and you could argue that a faster driver would get better results in the car....*cough* Williams *cough*
In 2007 I had the chance to go to a meet-and-greet with an F1 test driver. I decided not to as I didn't think he'd even amount to much...he was the BMW Sauber test driver and his name was Sebastian Vettel...

PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by PlatinumZealot » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:37 pm

I think the point he was making is that the usable operating window is tiny and so that is not a good quality to have in a car. It means rubbish aero design.
"The true champions are also great men. They are capable of making difficult decisions, of admitting their mistakes and of pushing harder than before when they get up from a fall."

- Ferrari chairman Sergio Marchionne

Dipesh1995
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Dipesh1995 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:53 pm

Interesting quote:
We had some different aerodynamic devices last year that we don't have this year, so we are having to sort these issues out at the race track.
http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/23891 ... blem-areas

I wonder what aero devices he’s talking about. The car doesn’t seem drastically different in terms of aero profile compared to last year apart from the nose.

godlameroso
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by godlameroso » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:56 pm

mwillems wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:10 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:50 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:46 am


Yes. I made this call and was bashed across head for it. Glad that Zak finally wiped the BS on the windscreen away.
The thing is the car is pretty damn good aero wise save for a crucial detail, except that fixing this detail has huge knock on effects, so they can't just haphazardly throw parts at it. It's worth a lot of time if they get it working, maybe you take issue with PP's methodical approach, and maybe you're right, they just need to be a little more adventurous with their design in this area. Obviously when it comes to design you are always guessing, but you try to minimize the risks, it's easier to take risks with unlimited resources. With limited resources you have to bank on sure things, sure thing number 1 is iteration, a distant second is exploiting generalized principles to guide development, and number 3 is a complete radical overhaul which is a sign of desperation. No self respecting narcissist would dare take option 3, but option 3 may be what's needed.
Personally I have never ruled out Aero issues, or in fact ruled out anything. It's obvious that aero is costing them a lot of time. But the way they ran the suspension so hard in Canada in comparison to other teams, as well as apparently needing more downforce still suggests top me they also have a suspension problem. I also don't put it past them to not be honest and clear with the full facts, or to mention all the issues. Of course it is possible that the behaviour of the diffuser forces them to push the car closer to the ground and for it to require a stiffer setup to work, but still it seems off to me.

Other teams appear to not have a dissimilar bargeboard setup, or have had, to us, yet they do not suffer the same issues.

Can this be explained?
Look at the outer edge of the bargeboards.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee