2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

[PlatinumZealot]

If there is some mysterious shenanigans happening with the barge board, i guess that if the new nose is channeling some more air in that direction then it may have made it worse.

But after testing and after 7 races how the hell can they not see the issue? I wonder when they realised that they had a divergence between reality and the wind tunnel. Possibly after fitting the nose and doing aero tests in that area?

Because of management demands they slapped on the upgrades onto a wretched base without solving the problems there first. It's a shambles.

Really, you know that for a fact?

Looking back on past articles that's all I have to conclude.

Here is one such article. The words chosen by EB hint to the reader that is he was not fully confident in the updates. They were rushed!

"The 2018 car is coming to Barcelona, and obviously we hope that's the car we expect it to be," Boullier told Autosport.

"The car we have now, is as per plan, it's not that we missed the targets with it.

"But we missed the schedule targets with it, which means the car we'll have in Barcelona should have been in Australia.

"So we are running actually with an evolution of last year, and not the new car. And this car hopefully will be the one that we expect."

Boullier admitted that having to contest the first four races with such an obvious restriction had been frustrating for McLaren.

"Yes, but this is what it is. We knew this, and we just have to take the best we can," he said.

"So far we have been opportunistic, and we took the opportunities we've had with both drivers to take as many points as we could.

"It's just frustrating to see that we have such performance or pace in the race, and we are unable to unlock yet that performance in qualifying."

[Dipesh1995]

Probably they also relaxed much thinking that MCL32 was enough with some little updated and Renault P.U.

The thing is it’s not like they’ve stood relatively still in terms of chassis performance between MCL32 and MCL33. The MCL33 is a significantly poorer chassis than the 32. Their qualifying in Spain (a real car performance track) really showed that where they only managed to close the deficit to the top by 3 tenths (1.9 seconds in 2017 compared to 1.6 seconds in 2018 if I recall correctly) despite having a significantly better PU and 12 months of additional chassis development time.

I think they’ve done another 2013 but worse where they had a great car in 2012 and came up with a dog in 2013.

[Redragon]

As I read it and because they haven't had report any aero problems until now. Since September when the managers decided to change to Renault (specially Zack as it would do his selling to sponsors much more easy) the staff in the factory have been overloaded with work to meet the targets to fit the new engine and make the new chasis, etc... and until Spain everything looked fine but not many upgrades since, that feels to me that the factory is now been asked to continue working long hours, they might have some issues but because they are overloaded they can't meet the targets so there is kind of revolt because probably there is not more money to pay as they might be to the limit of the anual budget. So what they are doing is to buy time, summer break is approaching so they might be internally delaying development and having a break to have the staff happy and work towards after summer break to bring the developments. Basically buying time. Zack comes to the press says they have aero issues and clean the path a little, at the end of the day is a sales man.

[Zynerji]

I don't think the track testing is anywhere as good as putting it in a full sized tunnel. Smoke trails with high speed cameras I'm sure gives much more data than flow vis on a dirty track with cross winds.

But, not my circus, not my monkeys.

Off topic, but afaik smoke trails are pretty outdated and only done for show.
The proper way to do it is using PIV.

Thanks. Good to know the real systems that are in place!

[diffuser]

Because of management demands they slapped on the upgrades onto a wretched base without solving the problems there first. It's a shambles.

Really, you know that for a fact?

Looking back on past articles that's all I have to conclude.

Here is one such article. The words chosen by EB hint to the reader that is he was not fully confident in the updates. They were rushed!

"The 2018 car is coming to Barcelona, and obviously we hope that's the car we expect it to be," Boullier told Autosport.

"The car we have now, is as per plan, it's not that we missed the targets with it.

"But we missed the schedule targets with it, which means the car we'll have in Barcelona should have been in Australia.

"So we are running actually with an evolution of last year, and not the new car. And this car hopefully will be the one that we expect."

Boullier admitted that having to contest the first four races with such an obvious restriction had been frustrating for McLaren.

"Yes, but this is what it is. We knew this, and we just have to take the best we can," he said.

"So far we have been opportunistic, and we took the opportunities we've had with both drivers to take as many points as we could.

"It's just frustrating to see that we have such performance or pace in the race, and we are unable to unlock yet that performance in qualifying."

That a stretch my friend...may I call you that?

[RonDennis]

They already had aero problems in the winter, Spanish media reported that the updates for Melbourne were delayed because of correlation issues. Just look at the performance of McLaren in Canada, the MCL33 probably is a worse car than the MCL32. Just 8 tenths quicker, while having a much better engine and quicker tires. I don't feel that they're lying, but they're certainly in big trouble for sure.

As I read it and because they haven't had report any aero problems until now. Since September when the managers decided to change to Renault (specially Zack as it would do his selling to sponsors much more easy) the staff in the factory have been overloaded with work to meet the targets to fit the new engine and make the new chasis, etc... and until Spain everything looked fine but not many upgrades since, that feels to me that the factory is now been asked to continue working long hours, they might have some issues but because they are overloaded they can't meet the targets so there is kind of revolt because probably there is not more money to pay as they might be to the limit of the anual budget. So what they are doing is to buy time, summer break is approaching so they might be internally delaying development and having a break to have the staff happy and work towards after summer break to bring the developments. Basically buying time. Zack comes to the press says they have aero issues and clean the path a little, at the end of the day is a sales man.

Yeah, they're just chilling right now. The crap people like you come up with. Nothing looked fine before Spain. The target was to be clear fourth in Melbourne and considering their facilities, drivers, engine and their pace at the end of the year they should have been. They just got lucky in a few races, but they reached Q3 two times this year. The car is crap and it has been from day one. I find it amazing that they still don't know how to fix their problems. The current team is completely incapable.

[diffuser]

I agree, the car hasn't looked good this year. It started at winter testing and hasn't improved. I missed that Spanish media claiming correlations issues.

[Redragon]

They already had aero problems in the winter, Spanish media reported that the updates for Melbourne were delayed because of correlation issues. Just look at the performance of McLaren in Canada, the MCL33 probably is a worse car than the MCL32. Just 8 tenths quicker, while having a much better engine and quicker tires. I don't feel that they're lying, but they're certainly in big trouble for sure.

As I read it and because they haven't had report any aero problems until now. Since September when the managers decided to change to Renault (specially Zack as it would do his selling to sponsors much more easy) the staff in the factory have been overloaded with work to meet the targets to fit the new engine and make the new chasis, etc... and until Spain everything looked fine but not many upgrades since, that feels to me that the factory is now been asked to continue working long hours, they might have some issues but because they are overloaded they can't meet the targets so there is kind of revolt because probably there is not more money to pay as they might be to the limit of the anual budget. So what they are doing is to buy time, summer break is approaching so they might be internally delaying development and having a break to have the staff happy and work towards after summer break to bring the developments. Basically buying time. Zack comes to the press says they have aero issues and clean the path a little, at the end of the day is a sales man.

Yeah, they're just chilling right now. The crap people like you come up with. Nothing looked fine before Spain. The target was to be clear fourth in Melbourne and considering their facilities, drivers, engine and their pace at the end of the year they should have been. They just got lucky in a few races, but they reached Q3 two times this year. The car is crap and it has been from day one. I find it amazing that they still don't know how to fix their problems. The current team is completely incapable.

Here it is their comments after on Spain they are positive http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12479/ ... h-red-bull I don't get personal, it is not worth it. It is my view crap or not you should respect it as I respect yours

[Redragon]

They already had aero problems in the winter, Spanish media reported that the updates for Melbourne were delayed because of correlation issues. Just look at the performance of McLaren in Canada, the MCL33 probably is a worse car than the MCL32. Just 8 tenths quicker, while having a much better engine and quicker tires. I don't feel that they're lying, but they're certainly in big trouble for sure.

As I read it and because they haven't had report any aero problems until now. Since September when the managers decided to change to Renault (specially Zack as it would do his selling to sponsors much more easy) the staff in the factory have been overloaded with work to meet the targets to fit the new engine and make the new chasis, etc... and until Spain everything looked fine but not many upgrades since, that feels to me that the factory is now been asked to continue working long hours, they might have some issues but because they are overloaded they can't meet the targets so there is kind of revolt because probably there is not more money to pay as they might be to the limit of the anual budget. So what they are doing is to buy time, summer break is approaching so they might be internally delaying development and having a break to have the staff happy and work towards after summer break to bring the developments. Basically buying time. Zack comes to the press says they have aero issues and clean the path a little, at the end of the day is a sales man.

Yeah, they're just chilling right now. The crap people like you come up with. Nothing looked fine before Spain. The target was to be clear fourth in Melbourne and considering their facilities, drivers, engine and their pace at the end of the year they should have been. They just got lucky in a few races, but they reached Q3 two times this year. The car is crap and it has been from day one. I find it amazing that they still don't know how to fix their problems. The current team is completely incapable.

Here it is their comments after on Spain they are positive http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12479/ ... h-red-bull I don't get personal, it is not worth it. It is my view crap or not you should respect it as I respect yours

The spanish press at the time as you are stating here were only reporting problems with tyres temperature before Spain and saying that the aero package was delayed because of problems on preseason but it was positive as results on the wind tunel were giving 1 second gain, I think you should inform you a bit more http://www.marca.com/motor/formula1/gp- ... b4672.html

[zoroastar]

Oh not this crap again... lets get Yuji Ide to see where the car REALLY is...

Well at least offer a counter argument?

Common sense. Physics. That fact that Alonso cannot make the car go faster than it is capable of going. Sure, he's faster than Vandoorne (not sure who this Van Dorne person is lol) and faster than a lot of other drivers and is capable of driving around problems to an extent, but let's make this clear - the car can only go as fast as it is capable of, therefore Alonso cannot make it go faster than that. If they had 2 drivers of Alonso's quality in the team would you be arguing that they should hire a slower driver in order to see what the "true pace" of the car is? Is the true pace of the Sauber what Leclerc is doing, or what Ericsson is doing? What about the Mercedes? Is Hamilton making it faster than it really is an the true pace is what Stroll would manage in that car?

The only time you can argue about a team not showing the "true pace" of the car due to drivers is where they have two slow drivers and you could argue that a faster driver would get better results in the car....*cough* Williams *cough*

vandorne is as fast as alonso through a lot of most races. but alonso is more consistent, more agressive when passing, and doesnt make many mistakes. not to mention he usually has much better starts. so there is more to it than why vandorne ends up several places back on sundays. hes probably just as fast as alonso on most laps. if they are looking at lap times, this whole argument about looking at alonsos position as opposed to vandornes makes no sense. they are looking at laps, and sectors, not where they end up at the end of the race, when working on upgrades and maximum pace.

[zoroastar]

people also forget how much better the competition is compared to last year. no one expected haas to be anywhere and sauber now has major ferrari/ alpha help too. ferrari upping their game before any clashes over the new regs has upped the competition in the middfield big time. in the short term its good for the show, but haas somehow knew that they were going to be very competitive before testing had started. if they are going to be using ferrari's possible championship winning 2018 car to build their 2019 car, then new regs cant come fast enough for me.

canada and france are both very similar tracks. mclaren may have hit the lowest part of the season for them. their problems may be amplified in these high speed, stop go races, and austria isnt much different. if they do horrible in silverstone, then we know that they screwed up with the new upgrades. if not, then it probably wont get any worse than these 2 or 3 races.

[techman]

The thing is it’s not like they’ve stood relatively still in terms of chassis performance between MCL32 and MCL33. The MCL33 is a significantly poorer chassis than the 32. Their qualifying in Spain (a real car performance track) really showed that where they only managed to close the deficit to the top by 3 tenths (1.9 seconds in 2017 compared to 1.6 seconds in 2018 if I recall correctly) despite having a significantly better PU and 12 months of additional chassis development time.

I think they’ve done another 2013 but worse where they had a great car in 2012 and came up with a dog in 2013.

the 2013 car was a totally different concept to the 2012 mclaren car. they they made a mess of the 2013 car due to the different concept change. this 2018 car is an evolution from last year car. thats what tim goss of mclaren said and peter prom said , thats why mclaren believed that just a change of engine will give them a big upgrade but the reality was the 2017 car was not good car. it had too much drag to look good on corners. same currently if you hear vandorne in post race report , he mention the car does looked balanced but lacks pace. it was same thing last year also.

[max_speed]

i can see Alonso's formula1 career end is near. no way he is going to be in Mclaren ( he should leave F1). Mclaren is in Mess and will remain in there in foreseeable future. only Mercedes will win championships till 2020 or in worst case Ferrari.

[Dipesh1995]

The thing is it’s not like they’ve stood relatively still in terms of chassis performance between MCL32 and MCL33. The MCL33 is a significantly poorer chassis than the 32. Their qualifying in Spain (a real car performance track) really showed that where they only managed to close the deficit to the top by 3 tenths (1.9 seconds in 2017 compared to 1.6 seconds in 2018 if I recall correctly) despite having a significantly better PU and 12 months of additional chassis development time.

I think they’ve done another 2013 but worse where they had a great car in 2012 and came up with a dog in 2013.

the 2013 car was a totally different concept to the 2012 mclaren car. they they made a mess of the 2013 car due to the different concept change. this 2018 car is an evolution from last year car. thats what tim goss of mclaren said and peter prom said , thats why mclaren believed that just a change of engine will give them a big upgrade but the reality was the 2017 car was not good car. it had too much drag to look good on corners. same currently if you hear vandorne in post race report , he mention the car does looked balanced but lacks pace. it was same thing last year also.

So taking the Spanish GP example again, are you suggesting that the power deficit between the Mercedes (which took pole in 2017 and 2018) and the Honda PU at Spanish GP in 2017 was the same as that between the Mercedes and Renault PU in 2018 and they’ve gained 3 tenths on them just by out-developing them?

Get real, the 2018 Renault PU is far superior compared to the 2017 Honda PU in terms of the power deficit to the Mercedes in their respective years of use particularly around May of each year. McLaren have just gone backwards with chassis performance. Let me elaborate using example numbers to get my point across better. Disclaimer: these numbers are not 100% accurate and are for illustration purposes only although I do think they’re in the right ball park. The 1.9 seconds deficit in 2017 could have comprised of 1.4 seconds from PU and 0.5 seconds from the chassis whilst the 1.6 seconds deficit in 2018 could have comprised of 0.7 seconds from PU and 0.9 seconds from the chassis. I think the chassis deficit since the Spanish GP has also increased significantly.

[techman]

The 1.9 seconds deficit in 2017 could have comprised of 1.4 seconds from PU and 0.5 seconds from the chassis whilst the 1.6 seconds deficit in 2018 could have comprised of 0.7 seconds from PU and 0.9 seconds from the chassis. I think the chassis deficit since the Spanish GP has also increased significantly.

.

according to the experts 10bhp equates to about roughly 0.1 sec gain. so 1.4 second deficit from pu is not reasonable. if you look at end of last year. mclaren were still down on redbull by over a second. now. even though mclaren blamed everything on honda. i remember hasegawa saying they are very close to renault. the deficit of the mclaren chassis to redbull was much more than the deficit honda had to renault. dont underestimate the performance gains you can get through an efficient chassis. just by chassis alone redbull can be over 1.5 second or more faster than mclaren. and same with ferrari to haas. huge gains can be made with chassis alone. for zak to say to sky broadcaster last years end , according to their simulations( which we now know are wrong) if they had the renault engine they would have beat redull in some race last year is laughable. iam not saying honda isnt to blame, they were part of the problem but it has be exaggerated as the only reason mclaren cant compete with redbull