2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Jackles-UK
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Jackles-UK » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:21 am

M840TR wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:00 pm
Motorlat is reporting that Alonso is going to be reserve driver and technical adviser for the team in 2019. He's going to be testing the Mcl34 in Barcelona during winter testing but not in any FP1s.

https://www.motorlat.com/notas/f1/8915/ ... en-en-2019
I suggested a while back that this may end up happening. With two new drivers (albeit Norris did drive a few hours here and there) and a new technical team, having access to the comparisons across the two cars would be hugely beneficial. For Fernando, it keeps his foot in the F1 door should a decent drive for 2020 suddenly materialise.

It was also confirmed on Autosport yesterday that the 2019 drivers want Alonso’s input on the 2019 car so, credible source or not, there’s clearly desire from McLaren’s side. Keeping him on as part of the driver lineup (even as reserve) certainly makes sense from a sporting stand point but he must also be a huge asset for them commercially as well; they pulled a similar trick with Button back in 2017.

Nonserviam85
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Nonserviam85 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:32 pm

ringo wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:17 am
I think the failure was in transient flow analysis. This speaks to flow while cornering; ie rate of yaw vs air speed and added to that suspension movement and vibrations, wheel rotation etc.
I don't know the capabilities of the wind tunnels these days, but i highly doubt they can do all of these things to match real life accurately without tricks up the engineer's sleeves.
I can imagine a rotating platform with the car in the wind tunnel, high speed cameras, steering rack movements, spinning wheels on the model and suspension movement would all need to be combined to simulate close enough, and this is on a scaled model. It's not easy at all. I could understand if they messed up.

For the high speed corners, big radius, flat etc., the car has more gentle transients akin to the traditional wind tunnel setup.
This is true, the car was mostly suffering from flow separation and diffuser stall in high rate of yaw changes. This is extremely difficult to correlate in the Wind Tunnel and you rely on the CFD untill you hit the track.

Jolle
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Jolle » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:45 pm

Jackles-UK wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:21 am
M840TR wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:00 pm
Motorlat is reporting that Alonso is going to be reserve driver and technical adviser for the team in 2019. He's going to be testing the Mcl34 in Barcelona during winter testing but not in any FP1s.

https://www.motorlat.com/notas/f1/8915/ ... en-en-2019
I suggested a while back that this may end up happening. With two new drivers (albeit Norris did drive a few hours here and there) and a new technical team, having access to the comparisons across the two cars would be hugely beneficial. For Fernando, it keeps his foot in the F1 door should a decent drive for 2020 suddenly materialise.

It was also confirmed on Autosport yesterday that the 2019 drivers want Alonso’s input on the 2019 car so, credible source or not, there’s clearly desire from McLaren’s side. Keeping him on as part of the driver lineup (even as reserve) certainly makes sense from a sporting stand point but he must also be a huge asset for them commercially as well; they pulled a similar trick with Button back in 2017.
To me this sounds as part wishful thinking part marketing. Driver input is very limited these days, especially on track. Cars are set up, tested, engineered in the sim. Alonso doesn't do sim. Norris especially did weeks worth of sim work probably.
With no stars in the McLaren lineup next season, they need Alonso's name to catch a few sponsors.

RonDennis
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by RonDennis » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:01 pm

Finding the root of the problems has required the team to turn GP Fridays into an ongoing science experiment. At Suzuka in October both drivers griped that there had been no developments on the car since May. That's because many developments haven't worked as expected because of the "bottleneck" on the car, explains Stella, as well as the need for the team to rigorously evaluate its own processes.

"Even though we knew there were some areas that might be the culprit, it wasn't so obvious," he says. "So we had to conceive some tests to interrogate the entire car. It was a big effort in terms of experiments and tests with not necessarily what would have been raceable parts. And even if these tests provide clear answers, they can't necessarily be transformed and processed into something that can be developed for this year's car."

Development will continue to be difficult because the windtunnel at the McLaren Technology Centre is obsolete, and so 'baked in' to the building's structure that it cannot be brought up to the required standard. Under Dennis the company sought planning permission for a new facility that would house both the burgeoning McLaren Applied Technologies division and a new tunnel.

But it was bounced by the planning authorities on account of its traffic impact, even though the scheme included an underground-transport system that team insiders dubbed the 'Ronorail'. McLaren has been using the Toyota windtunnel in Cologne, adding an unwelcome layer of complication and expense to the team's research processes.
The Ronorail :lol:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature/86 ... e-to-blame

M840TR
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by M840TR » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:13 pm

Jolle wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:45 pm
Jackles-UK wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:21 am
M840TR wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:00 pm
Motorlat is reporting that Alonso is going to be reserve driver and technical adviser for the team in 2019. He's going to be testing the Mcl34 in Barcelona during winter testing but not in any FP1s.

https://www.motorlat.com/notas/f1/8915/ ... en-en-2019
I suggested a while back that this may end up happening. With two new drivers (albeit Norris did drive a few hours here and there) and a new technical team, having access to the comparisons across the two cars would be hugely beneficial. For Fernando, it keeps his foot in the F1 door should a decent drive for 2020 suddenly materialise.

It was also confirmed on Autosport yesterday that the 2019 drivers want Alonso’s input on the 2019 car so, credible source or not, there’s clearly desire from McLaren’s side. Keeping him on as part of the driver lineup (even as reserve) certainly makes sense from a sporting stand point but he must also be a huge asset for them commercially as well; they pulled a similar trick with Button back in 2017.
To me this sounds as part wishful thinking part marketing. Driver input is very limited these days, especially on track. Cars are set up, tested, engineered in the sim. Alonso doesn't do sim. Norris especially did weeks worth of sim work probably.
With no stars in the McLaren lineup next season, they need Alonso's name to catch a few sponsors.
A few runs in pre-season testing with barely any media coverage isn't a PR stunt. Driver input is often exaggerated but it has its perks. Alonso has 18 years of experience and knows the Mcl33 inside out so he can be a good benchmark for the car's performance.

McG
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by McG » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:31 pm

RonDennis wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:01 pm
Finding the root of the problems has required the team to turn GP Fridays into an ongoing science experiment. At Suzuka in October both drivers griped that there had been no developments on the car since May. That's because many developments haven't worked as expected because of the "bottleneck" on the car, explains Stella, as well as the need for the team to rigorously evaluate its own processes.

"Even though we knew there were some areas that might be the culprit, it wasn't so obvious," he says. "So we had to conceive some tests to interrogate the entire car. It was a big effort in terms of experiments and tests with not necessarily what would have been raceable parts. And even if these tests provide clear answers, they can't necessarily be transformed and processed into something that can be developed for this year's car."

Development will continue to be difficult because the windtunnel at the McLaren Technology Centre is obsolete, and so 'baked in' to the building's structure that it cannot be brought up to the required standard. Under Dennis the company sought planning permission for a new facility that would house both the burgeoning McLaren Applied Technologies division and a new tunnel.

But it was bounced by the planning authorities on account of its traffic impact, even though the scheme included an underground-transport system that team insiders dubbed the 'Ronorail'. McLaren has been using the Toyota windtunnel in Cologne, adding an unwelcome layer of complication and expense to the team's research processes.
The Ronorail :lol:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature/86 ... e-to-blame
Damn Ron was so innovative. Ok he made a mistake with bringing Honda in but little things like Ronrail could have really pushed things on. And big things like the Chinese investors could have been good.

Weird how McLaren got it so wrong using one of the best wind tunnels. Was it because of the change to Renault? Can't remember if it was a late change.

Ground Effect
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Ground Effect » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:37 pm

McG wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:31 pm
RonDennis wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:01 pm
Finding the root of the problems has required the team to turn GP Fridays into an ongoing science experiment. At Suzuka in October both drivers griped that there had been no developments on the car since May. That's because many developments haven't worked as expected because of the "bottleneck" on the car, explains Stella, as well as the need for the team to rigorously evaluate its own processes.

"Even though we knew there were some areas that might be the culprit, it wasn't so obvious," he says. "So we had to conceive some tests to interrogate the entire car. It was a big effort in terms of experiments and tests with not necessarily what would have been raceable parts. And even if these tests provide clear answers, they can't necessarily be transformed and processed into something that can be developed for this year's car."

Development will continue to be difficult because the windtunnel at the McLaren Technology Centre is obsolete, and so 'baked in' to the building's structure that it cannot be brought up to the required standard. Under Dennis the company sought planning permission for a new facility that would house both the burgeoning McLaren Applied Technologies division and a new tunnel.

But it was bounced by the planning authorities on account of its traffic impact, even though the scheme included an underground-transport system that team insiders dubbed the 'Ronorail'. McLaren has been using the Toyota windtunnel in Cologne, adding an unwelcome layer of complication and expense to the team's research processes.
The Ronorail :lol:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/feature/86 ... e-to-blame
Damn Ron was so innovative. Ok he made a mistake with bringing Honda in but little things like Ronrail could have really pushed things on. And big things like the Chinese investors could have been good.

Weird how McLaren got it so wrong using one of the best wind tunnels. Was it because of the change to Renault? Can't remember if it was a late change.
Martin Whitmarsh did the Honda deal, not Ron.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

M840TR
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by M840TR » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:28 pm

The problem was not the deal. It was excellent on paper. Hundreds of millions in funding with free engines? Deal of a lifetime! It was more the poor execution that got them. Honda didn't even have two years to build the most complex engines in the history of F1. Add that to the fact that they'd been out of the game for years and had to focus on building their facilities and hiring the right people. They should've played it safe and use a cash-strapped team like Caterham as a mule for a few years (like Toro Rosso) while running the Merc engine as a benchmark. I'm sure Honda would've complied with supplying them free engines for a quid pro quo.
Their shortsightedness cost them so much, even their jobs.

Dipesh1995
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Dipesh1995 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:16 pm

M840TR wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:28 pm
The problem was not the deal. It was excellent on paper. Hundreds of millions in funding with free engines? Deal of a lifetime! It was more the poor execution that got them. Honda didn't even have two years to build the most complex engines in the history of F1. Add that to the fact that they'd been out of the game for years and had to focus on building their facilities and hiring the right people. They should've played it safe and use a cash-strapped team like Caterham as a mule for a few years (like Toro Rosso) while running the Merc engine as a benchmark. I'm sure Honda would've complied with supplying them free engines for a quid pro quo.
Their shortsightedness cost them so much, even their jobs.
Yep, summed it up perfectly. If only one could turn back time....

proteus
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by proteus » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:20 pm

M840TR wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:13 pm
Jolle wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:45 pm
Jackles-UK wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:21 am


I suggested a while back that this may end up happening. With two new drivers (albeit Norris did drive a few hours here and there) and a new technical team, having access to the comparisons across the two cars would be hugely beneficial. For Fernando, it keeps his foot in the F1 door should a decent drive for 2020 suddenly materialise.

It was also confirmed on Autosport yesterday that the 2019 drivers want Alonso’s input on the 2019 car so, credible source or not, there’s clearly desire from McLaren’s side. Keeping him on as part of the driver lineup (even as reserve) certainly makes sense from a sporting stand point but he must also be a huge asset for them commercially as well; they pulled a similar trick with Button back in 2017.
To me this sounds as part wishful thinking part marketing. Driver input is very limited these days, especially on track. Cars are set up, tested, engineered in the sim. Alonso doesn't do sim. Norris especially did weeks worth of sim work probably.
With no stars in the McLaren lineup next season, they need Alonso's name to catch a few sponsors.
A few runs in pre-season testing with barely any media coverage isn't a PR stunt. Driver input is often exaggerated but it has its perks. Alonso has 18 years of experience and knows the Mcl33 inside out so he can be a good benchmark for the car's performance.
On the other hand, is it really smart to customize the car to a retired driver and ask how he feels comfortable with it, instead of Lando and Carlos?

Alonso has retired, the story should have ended here, to me it is not smart to involve Alonso any further.
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows

McG
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by McG » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:22 pm

M840TR wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:28 pm
The problem was not the deal. It was excellent on paper. Hundreds of millions in funding with free engines? Deal of a lifetime! It was more the poor execution that got them. Honda didn't even have two years to build the most complex engines in the history of F1. Add that to the fact that they'd been out of the game for years and had to focus on building their facilities and hiring the right people. They should've played it safe and use a cash-strapped team like Caterham as a mule for a few years (like Toro Rosso) while running the Merc engine as a benchmark. I'm sure Honda would've complied with supplying them free engines for a quid pro quo.
Their shortsightedness cost them so much, even their jobs.
Who are you referring to? Honda or McLaren or both?

Bill
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Bill » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:52 pm

Let see how the Honda pu performs in the Redbull because Mclaren fans will never admit that their beloved team is subpar if they don't perform it must be someone problem. Honda had a decent pu for the whole of 2016 and second half of 2017 , so half the time for the duration of Mclaren relationship. Mclaren lost a lot of staff to Mercedes that's source of their problem

Jackles-UK
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Jackles-UK » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:30 am

Mercedes (and I’d assume Ferrari & Renault to some extent too) had been working on their Turbo-Hybrid PU’s from as far back as 2012 I believe - it was this early knowledge that convinced Hamilton to move to Mercedes from McLaren.

Honda were parachuted into the F1 circus at least one year earlier than expected (at the request of Ron Dennis) and were therefore trying to compete with engines three or four years into their development cycle, with only one team to run tests on their engine and with a list of specifications as long as your arm from McLaren as to what it should entail!

As some have said, the deal itself would have been a master stroke if it had worked out. Being paid huge sums of money by Honda to have free engines built for them to McLaren’s design to specifically match their chassis? What’s not to like? Just a shame that issues that arose from both sides were insurmountable.

muramasa
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by muramasa » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:04 am

M840TR wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:28 pm
The problem was not the deal. It was excellent on paper. Hundreds of millions in funding with free engines? Deal of a lifetime! It was more the poor execution that got them. Honda didn't even have two years to build the most complex engines in the history of F1. Add that to the fact that they'd been out of the game for years and had to focus on building their facilities and hiring the right people. They should've played it safe and use a cash-strapped team like Caterham as a mule for a few years (like Toro Rosso) while running the Merc engine as a benchmark. I'm sure Honda would've complied with supplying them free engines for a quid pro quo.
Their shortsightedness cost them so much, even their jobs.
Why "hiring right people"? It's about firstly and most importantly the same group of people at HRD Sakura gaining and accumulating more knowledge and experience, then assigning right or more people from within Honda and structuring the organization. Most Honda staffs involved in F1 now used to be involved with F1 in 00s as well, and same people are doing F1 since 2013 to this day despite rather frequent changes in project leaders and some reshuffles, although of course there have been some ins and outs.

Using backmarker team as a mule is just unrealistic fantasy, are you aware of much it takes just to run an F1 team for a season? It's just money wasted for nothing that would otherwise be spent for something better and actually beneficial.

The rest is right and what I've been saying since 2015, glad more people are saying what's just so obvious.

Jackles-UK wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:30 am
Mercedes (and I’d assume Ferrari & Renault to some extent too) had been working on their Turbo-Hybrid PU’s from as far back as 2012 I believe - it was this early knowledge that convinced Hamilton to move to Mercedes from McLaren.

Honda were parachuted into the F1 circus at least one year earlier than expected (at the request of Ron Dennis) and were therefore trying to compete with engines three or four years into their development cycle, with only one team to run tests on their engine and with a list of specifications as long as your arm from McLaren as to what it should entail!

As some have said, the deal itself would have been a master stroke if it had worked out. Being paid huge sums of money by Honda to have free engines built for them to McLaren’s design to specifically match their chassis? What’s not to like? Just a shame that issues that arose from both sides were insurmountable.
Merc Fer Ren have been working on PU practically since 2010.

Honda participating in F1 in 2015 rather than in 2016 or even 2017 was decision made by Honda and McLaren having assessed all the pros and cons, not such simple thing as at the request of one individual in Dennis. People have so short memory, remember that initially this PU reg was on yearly development freezing scheme and token system, so the later you enter the less areas for development and at that time there was zero sign zero talk about removing this freeze and token scheme. So really they had to enter as early as possible even by sacrificing one or few years. Only in the latter half of 2015 the F1 community started to realize that this freeze and token system is flawed before eventually deciding to scrap it altogether from 2017 season in early 2016.

Actually having only one team is advantageous, a booster for development in primary stages of development, they can concentrate on one car and be aggressive in introducing new components either update or exchange due to trouble without holding back like Renault had to. Honda has always been reluctant about 2nd team supply because it stretches their logistics capacity way too much (manufacturing capability, supply chain capability and race staff number). This "double mileage data" that has been suggested a lot can only be of some advantage when you have stable and established foundation in every aspects.
Last edited by muramasa on Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:55 am, edited 3 times in total.

Bill
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Re: 2018 McLaren F1 Team - Renault

Post by Bill » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:20 am

Most people get this important fact wrong the engine regulation came about in 2007 that were the likes of merc started working on their pu the engine were supposed to be raced in 2011 but Ferrari and Renault said the were not ready so they were deferred to 2014 . So Honda is doing well if you consider that others have a 5 year head start [...]
Last edited by Steven on Wed Dec 19, 2018 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed unfounded speculation