2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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Ground Effect
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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carisi2k wrote:
21 Jun 2018, 05:03
ispano6 wrote:
20 Jun 2018, 16:02

So now he's saying RBR might or might not get Spec "C". Is that even legal? FIA will probably side with their French compatriots. What a sham. I would not be surprised to see Renault leapfrog RBR toward the end of the season as RBR begins to experience "unusual" reliability issues much the same way as they did to STR. This should serve well to motivate Honda even more.
I think you will find those reliability issues are already happening. Red Bull has already had reliability issues in Bahrain, China and Monaco and that is only on Daniel's car. What more could Renault do to already make Red Bulls life more difficult?
Interestingly, before the second engine components were used in Canada the Renault works team had zero failures and we're still on their first examples. In contrast Red Bull have had quite a few and were on the verge of penalties, especially with Dan. I'm not saying Renault are playing games, but it does a bit odd, how does the FIA verify all is above board with the supplier? After all, Franz alluded to something similar towards the end of last season, which set Cyril off.
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marvin78
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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Another explanation for that could be, that the packing in the RedBull is just not good for reliability and that themes to be a more plausible explanation...even "no luck" is more plausible...

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carisi2k
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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So a team who has 5 years experience with the Renault PU, is the only team who has won races with that PU and had no issues in 2016 when Renault last produced a reliable package all of a sudden forgot how to package the Renault engine without causing reliability issues.

Having both red bull teams using Honda will benefit all parties within that umbrella and I think the RB15-H will be a reliable rocket that Renault will be eating it's dust as it laps the RE19.

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adrianjordan
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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Isn’t it more likely that RBR, being in the hunt for wins and podiums most races, are simply pushing the PU a little bit more than Renault/McLaren who are in the mid-field and would suffer more from penalties (because RBR has a faster car and so can make up the lost places more easily)?
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Webber2011
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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adrianjordan wrote:
21 Jun 2018, 10:44
Isn’t it more likely that RBR, being in the hunt for wins and podiums most races, are simply pushing the PU a little bit more than Renault/McLaren who are in the mid-field and would suffer more from penalties (because RBR has a faster car and so can make up the lost places more easily)?
I see what you are saying mate, but what do you mean by "pushing the pu a little more" ?
Do you mean as in cooling for aero gain ?

Or do you reckon they run the engine in higher modes, or some thing like that ?

Just interested to know 😊
Thanks

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adrianjordan
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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Could be a combination of both. Likelihood is that it’s not just one or the other on its own. Could also be something to do with using a different fuel supplier.
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muramasa
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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adrianjordan wrote:
21 Jun 2018, 14:36
Could be a combination of both. Likelihood is that it’s not just one or the other on its own. Could also be something to do with using a different fuel supplier.
yeah, during 2014 winter testing, the only Renault powered team that was pounding laps for Renault was Caterham. Meanwhile RBR was stopping with only 2 or 3 meters (literally) out of garage. Enstone STR were better than that but not as good as Caterham. In 2014 season, the most fragile Merc users was Brackley, the unit on the back of the Brackley car was failing and burning while its customers' were pretty bullet proof. 2016 as well, Brackley was the least reliable among Merc users. Ferrari is roughly the same (Maranello the most trouble hit), and this year's Renault is the same too (RBR, the fastest team). STR in the final part of last year is exception tho, according to Tost they were given rebuilt components altho Cyril attributed it to STR's packaging.
What can be deduced from general engineering is that that's because better funded, bigger teams can afford to go aggressive on every front, design and usage, which then puts reliability on the limit. McLaren breaking down in this winter testing was not due to incompetence but going aggressive (also less understanding on Renault unit which is new to them). Honda's unreliability is explained by lack of development time and being in a position to catch up, which is one of this general engineering principle, btw. Anyway so it's likely that RBR will be less reliable than STR next year too.

Espresso
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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adrianjordan wrote:
21 Jun 2018, 14:36
Could be a combination of both. Likelihood is that it’s not just one or the other on its own. Could also be something to do with using a different fuel supplier.
My hunch also.
The Renault Engine with ExxonMobil performend better then with BP.
Guess from the dyno-testing and race engines...some drops miraculeus dripped to BP.

Just took BP some time to develop the new Fuel.

The new engine en new BP Fuel in Canada gave Renault some extra performance.
Compared to RBR both Renault and McLaren gained more.
Since RBR probably already has the superior Fuel there gain was expected to be lower but still significant.

Giving Abiteboul a chance to launch out to RBR about Fuel Supplier.
Typical politics warfare from Abiteboul.
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Phil
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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Regarding RedBull switching to Honda:

I have to say I am a little surprised how quickly RedBull confirmed and decided to go with Honda for next year. Not that the switch surprises me in itself, but more that they didn't want to give themselves an additional race to monitor reliability across a longer period of the new spec engine. Either way, it's great news for Honda.

I wouldn't be too quick in claiming technical superiority of the Honda engine over the Renault though. For one, as Renault (Abiteboul) has already confirmed; the gain of the latest spec was lower for RedBull than it was for the works-team due to different fuel supplier. Beyond this though, I do see some big advantages in going with Honda over Renault for 2019; For one, the demands and layout/size of the Honda engine might enable RedBull to push their aero concept even further. Being a Renault customer, it means that Renault is catering foremost to the interests of their own team - just like Mercedes is doing with their engine and Ferrari too. That means any changes of the Renault engine in regards to build, design, trade-offs is made to suit their own car. The customers don't get much say if any. As Honda is not running their own team and are now catering to RedBull exclusively beyond 2019 (TR is a RB afterall), it makes them effectively a works-team.

So even if the Honda engine is - lets assume on par - with the Renault engine, it's design, build and set-up may be more beneficial to a team like RedBull because it allows them to be more flexible and perhaps run their aero more aggressively. In other words - all the little benefits McLaren was hoping to get and exploit when deciding to leave Mercedes and go for Honda back in 2014.
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Big Tea
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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Phil wrote:
22 Jun 2018, 12:25
Regarding RedBull switching to Honda:

I have to say I am a little surprised how quickly RedBull confirmed and decided to go with Honda for next year. Not that the switch surprises me in itself, but more that they didn't want to give themselves an additional race to monitor reliability across a longer period of the new spec engine. Either way, it's great news for Honda.

I wouldn't be too quick in claiming technical superiority of the Honda engine over the Renault though. For one, as Renault (Abiteboul) has already confirmed; the gain of the latest spec was lower for RedBull than it was for the works-team due to different fuel supplier. Beyond this though, I do see some big advantages in going with Honda over Renault for 2019; For one, the demands and layout/size of the Honda engine might enable RedBull to push their aero concept even further. Being a Renault customer, it means that Renault is catering foremost to the interests of their own team - just like Mercedes is doing with their engine and Ferrari too. That means any changes of the Renault engine in regards to build, design, trade-offs is made to suit their own car. The customers don't get much say if any. As Honda is not running their own team and are now catering to RedBull exclusively beyond 2019 (TR is a RB afterall), it makes them effectively a works-team.

So even if the Honda engine is - lets assume on par - with the Renault engine, it's design, build and set-up may be more beneficial to a team like RedBull because it allows them to be more flexible and perhaps run their aero more aggressively. In other words - all the little benefits McLaren was hoping to get and exploit when deciding to leave Mercedes and go for Honda back in 2014.
As I said in a previous post, it always feels better to tell someone you walked rather than you were dumped.
Maybe Renault called them out on the date and RBR decided to preempt them by making the announcement first
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Phil
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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No way. Renault kept extending the deadline. Did you even watch the press conference? No way Renault dumped them.
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loner
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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this is why iam excited about RBR-Honda team
Formula 1 French Grand Prix: Mercedes brings enhanced engine update

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13692 ... ne-upgrade
Mercedes always sandbaging

i just have a feeling the combination of RBR + Honda will defeat mercedes even after merc's sandbaging.
and by defeat i mean clinching the title.
para bellum.

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carisi2k
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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adrianjordan wrote:
21 Jun 2018, 14:36
Could be a combination of both. Likelihood is that it’s not just one or the other on its own. Could also be something to do with using a different fuel supplier.
The different fuel could give credence to your assertions but the RB14 has more space inside it's package then the Mcl33 has. The answer is probably a little bit of fuel and a little bit of the Renault can't handle being pushed at the speed the RB14 is capable of. Remember that Red Bulls issues have not been caused by overheating but by straight out failures.

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ME4ME
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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Motorsport.com:
“I think we are reasonably comfortable in understanding the technical strategy, the debate for us now is what is called sometimes the sporting strategy,” he said. "This is the restriction on dyno, the restriction on manpower, the cost caps, the sharing of parts.

“And frankly, in many respects, that is more important to us than the technical regulations, because that determines whether we have the financial resources to go into competition with the likes of Mercedes and the enormous amount of money that they have and can throw at this sport.

“We are a much smaller company and we don’t have those resources, so that is the big debate for us.”
“The only reason for going further is if we have an innate belief that we can help Red Bull and we can win,” he said. “And it is very much coming from a background of, how do you keep Red Bull racing in a context of difficult supply conditions?
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/asto ... n-1047224/

I don't know what trick Horner played on this guy but its clearly working; he's coming across very naive in my opinion. A.) Why is it Aston Martin's duty to guarantee an engine supply to RBR in case Honda and/or Renault withdraw or deny engine supply. And B.) Why go ahead if it's very likely that you do not have the resources and will be severely outspend?

The entire Aston Marin engine supply is far fetched in my opinion. Honda have a reputation to re-build and have a chance to enter the new regulations without a year(+) disadvantage this time around. Renault, although focusing on their own team might consider a costumer deal with RBR in the future if all other options fail - and might very much be forced to do so by the FIA/FOM. And than the issue of expenditure; Mercedes have an entire operation with hundreds of people dedicated to their F1 PU. Even if the FIA & FOM intend to restrict and reduce expenditure, it's not going to happen overnight. Wolff has already indicated so; he's not going to allow his engineers to lose their job. If any cost-saving deal materializes at all, it will almost certainly dictate a reducting of work force over an extented period of time; possibily until 2025. Surely Aston Martin isn't naive enough believe they'll be on equal footing already by 2021?

In my opinion, if given the option, Red Bull as an global brand is much more likely to continue their partnership and association with Honda than to turn to Aston Martin for a full-on technical partnership. The brand synergies between RB and Honda are just too strong, and so are the technical and financial capabilities of Honda compared to Aston Martin.

tinvek
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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i must admit i just don't see what aston martin will get from any future alliance with red bull, when the deal was signed, the engine manufacturer, although known, was hidden under a false name and if red bull had managed to gain a mercedes engine, badging it as an aston martin unit would have made sense given the road car engines manufacture, but from next season it'll be everywhere that the aston martin red bull is powered by a honda engine, how long before the kids are claiming their civics use the same engine as the aston martin DB11