2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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Juzh
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Juzh » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:51 pm

M840TR wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:08 pm
Redbull was also slow off low speed corners which indicates bad drivability and hence lesser speed on the straights. It might just be the engine because Mclaren suffer similarly but I'm not counting aero out.
Where and how did you come up with that? You're saying a car which was easily the best in monaco was somehow struggling for traction all of a sudden?

godlameroso
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Re: Aston Martin Red Bull Racing TAG Heuer RB14

Post by godlameroso » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:09 pm

f1316 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:34 pm
I’m surprised you’d say COTA and Suzuka - regardless of what side you come down on (PU or aero philosophy - or, indeed, combination of the two, which is my take) surely those two circuits are largely similar to Silverstone?
I don't think they are, and Max almost won in Suzuka, and had really good pace in COTA. Suzuka is a rear limited circuit and sectors 1 & 2 is all chassis, COTA has enough slow corners and high speed corners where they can keep up, while also being rear limited. The lower consistent power of the Renault preserves the rear tires.
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godlameroso
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Re: Aston Martin Red Bull Racing TAG Heuer RB14

Post by godlameroso » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:14 pm

Vanja #66 wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:26 pm
Red Bull are in a frightening anti-Renault campaign at the moment. Fact manipulation is severe, Max is right on it, must be why Horner and Marko love him so much.

Just as a reference - Silverstone map.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... k=YXjttZqp

When you compare race speeds from last year and this year:

https://image.ibb.co/ftQGNT/2017_race.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/cqY32T/2018_race.jpg

And qualy speeds as well (disregard Dani Ric 2017 qualy, he had turbo failure in Q1):

https://image.ibb.co/dw8E98/2017_qual.jpg

https://image.ibb.co/haGO2T/2018_qual.jpg

You understand that every team went for more downforce this year (where the lap time comes of course) sacrificing top speed a bit. Ferrari made the biggest progress due to great work on aero efficiency and PU, but Max has clearly had more downforce/drag than Dani Ric (who had to use DRS manually in Q). Also, Max lacked DRS in the race, where this speed deficit comes from. Look where Hamilton was with top speed in race last year (without DRS) and this year 20kmh up.

Red Bull chose to go Ferrari 2017 - max downforce, sacrifice efficiency. Just like Ferrari last year - they were top dogs in Monaco (and very likely will be in Hungary and Singapore) and they struggled the most (so far) in Silverstone. It's a ctrl+c, ctrl+v really.
You can't really draw any conclusions from that because that's just a snapshot of a variety of factors, DRS, a tow, ERS SOC, engine mode etc. Perhaps there are times where the Mercedes and Ferrari PU's has 70 hp more than the Renault because they can simply keep the power flowing where the Renault can't. In other words the other PU's are more efficient and don't have to turn the engine down as often.

In other words it's like 2 runners who can both run the 400m at similar pace but one of them will run circles around the other in a 5k.
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PhillipM
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by PhillipM » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:44 pm

I'm not sure on the RB's but Vettel did T1 with the DRS open toward the end of the race when the fuel load was low - perhaps check back the last dozen laps or so and see if RB was doing the same.

djos
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by djos » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:58 pm

Both RedBull drivers where definitely able to run through turn 1 with DRS fully open as it was commented on extensively by the sky crew.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Vanja #66
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Re: Aston Martin Red Bull Racing TAG Heuer RB14

Post by Vanja #66 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 11:19 pm

For christ sake, it's not all conclusions from these speeds alone. At no point in the race did Ferrari or Mercedes run away from Red Bull. Neither did they do it in Canada, neither in France, neither in Austria. Red Bull were way better in this race compared to both Ferrari and Mercedes, than Ferrari was compared to Mercedes last year - not to mention Red Bull compared to Mercedes. Max went around the outside of Kimi in Luffield and fed him diffuser dust! If that doesn't show superior downforce, I don't know what else can.

Still, their chassis isn't optimal for Silverstone, it was always going to be this way. It was their choice and if they didn't expect this - they didn't do their homework properly. I think they did, I think they were prepared and I think this campaign was the only certain outcome of Silverstone race. You've got to find an excuse, otherwise sponsor will seriously wonder why the hell they are paying so much money for stickers on your car.

I agree about other races, I only mentioned Hungary and Singapore as races where Red Bull will very likely take easy victories. At others you mentioned we would be crazy not to expect them very close at the front.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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M840TR
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by M840TR » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:56 am

Juzh wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:51 pm
M840TR wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:08 pm
Redbull was also slow off low speed corners which indicates bad drivability and hence lesser speed on the straights. It might just be the engine because Mclaren suffer similarly but I'm not counting aero out.
Where and how did you come up with that? You're saying a car which was easily the best in monaco was somehow struggling for traction all of a sudden?
It's in the link I gave. Ricciardo's exit speed is much slower than vettel on the slow speed corners. Maybe it didn't effect them due to different wings in Monaco and Silverstone.

Juzh
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Juzh » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:36 am

M840TR wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:56 am
Juzh wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:51 pm
M840TR wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:08 pm
Redbull was also slow off low speed corners which indicates bad drivability and hence lesser speed on the straights. It might just be the engine because Mclaren suffer similarly but I'm not counting aero out.
Where and how did you come up with that? You're saying a car which was easily the best in monaco was somehow struggling for traction all of a sudden?
It's in the link I gave. Ricciardo's exit speed is much slower than vettel on the slow speed corners. Maybe it didn't effect them due to different wings in Monaco and Silverstone.
Can't find any links.. Ric's exits speed off of slow speed corners is due to renault's lack of sheeer power, not RB's traction problem, which would go against everything that've seen this season.

Manoah2u
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Manoah2u » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:44 am

it was commented that the estimation is RB is 70hp down on Ferrari's powerplant.
the only way of knowing anything more or less seriously is if the ferrari or merc powerplant gets placed in the redbull.
we have no idea whether next year the Honda engine will be anywhere near.

there is apart from that though, no doubt that the Renault engine is far down on power compared to the Merc and Ferrari.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

Juzh
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Juzh » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:50 am

djos wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:58 pm
Both RedBull drivers where definitely able to run through turn 1 with DRS fully open as it was commented on extensively by the sky crew.
Believing the Sky crew :wtf: They were saying troughout the race copse is flat (easy flat no less) even in the race #-o #-o

They weren't able to do T1 with drs:
first run in q3


second run

Juzh
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Juzh » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:50 am

PhillipM wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:44 pm
I'm not sure on the RB's but Vettel did T1 with the DRS open toward the end of the race when the fuel load was low - perhaps check back the last dozen laps or so and see if RB was doing the same.
No, he was doing T2 with drs open. No one was going DRSed trough T1, in quali or race.

Ground Effect
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Ground Effect » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:49 am

Max said that the deficit was tragic and like driving in another series.... F2 engine!! F2 engine!! Ughhhhh!!!
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

marvin78
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by marvin78 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:03 pm

And that's marketing.

TwanV
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by TwanV » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:22 pm

no not really, with the SC in place twice all fuel saving scenario's are out of the window and so Renault couldn't cope. RAI was on qualifying mode, I'm sure even you won't deny the advantage that Merc and Ferrari hold over Renault powered cars when that happens.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by gandharva » Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:39 pm

marvin78 wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:03 pm
And that's marketing.
No, it's stealing Alfonsos arguments! ;)
That engine is top notch and is catching Ferr/Merc next year since 2014! :D