2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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DarkSurferZA
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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Wow, all this hate against F1 PU manufacturers is really annoying. Happened to Honda for many seasons, and now Renault just because RBR is on the receiving end of it.

Let's just clear up some things and state some facts:
1) RBR had many successful years with Renault, and even the blown diffuser era that was made possible because of Renault was credited to the genious of Adrian and not Renault.
2) For all of the seasons i can recall, when RBR had driveability advantages with the Renault PU, they always played it as "we are down on power".
3) No manufacturer wants to see their engines go up in smoke in a GP. Its bad for them. more so than for the chassis manufacturer.
4) RBR has had more failures this year than McLaren Renault and Renault works team combined. Why do you think this is, especially given that no manufacturer wants to see their engine up in smoke.
5) RBR were offered a new MGU-K by Renault which they turned down. Who's faiult is that?
6) When McLaren switched from Honda to Renault, the self proclaimed "best chassis on the grid" suddenly found itself nowhere, while Honda found a miraculous burst of reliability completing more laps in the STR car than McLaren did with their Renault engine.
7) The Renault PU is not as far off of Ferrari/Merc as the lap times are showing on the RBR, there is time to be made elsewhere.

It's common cause that the Renault engine is not the best, it's common cause that Honda had huge issues the last few seasons, it's common cause that RBR have a really good car.

But FFS, nobody in that paddock (even the folkses at Williams or McLaren) are amatures, there is no conspiracy, and some teams need to be "team" players and learn to win and lose together. Everyone had the opportunity to enter into commercial agreements with whomever they chose, and they all use it to their advantage and detrement at various stages throughout their lifespan on track TOGETHER.

If I were a manufacturer of any component, i would not enter into any commercial agreement with a team who didn't understand that we are a team when we go out there on the track. Even if it means i cant be part of the F1 circus.

McLaren and RBR are the kind of team that really dont understand this. And their fans are just as bad.

Just chill. things arent working, there are problems in the package, let it be resolved or change the package and get on with racing. Also, be careful what you wish for, the grass isn't always greener on the other side, and if RBR switch to Honda and do worse than they do now, there is no one to blame but themselves. There is nowhere to hide after the PU swop.

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Wouter
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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Shrieker wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:43 pm
Things are turning yet even more sour between Renault and Red Bull (and rightfully so). Do you guys think there's a possibility of Red Bull switching to Honda before the end of the season ? They don't have integration yet, so maybe they can use a slightly modified version of the TR chassis maybe ? What would the rules say about it ?

I think that there is a possibility. They can use a slightly modified version of the RB14.
FIA Sporting regulations:

Article 8.3 A competitor may change the make of engine at any time during the Championship. All points scored with an engine of different make to that which was first entered in the Championship may count (and will be aggregated) for the assessment of a commercial benefit, however such points will not count towards (nor be aggregated for) the FIA Formula One Constructors Championship. A major car manufacturer may not directly or indirectly supply engines for more than three teams of two cars each without the consent of the FIA. For the purposes of this Article 8.3, a major car manufacturer is a company whose shares are quoted on a recognised stock exchange or the subsidiary of such a company.

Espresso
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 9:52 am
Verstappen took his third MGU-K in Monaco, the days after the race Renault let know the new MGU-K is now available...

So if they would like to take it, it means a grid penalty. maybe they should have taken it in Hungary, overtaking there wasn't tough at all for Ricciardo. The track also wasn't that great for RBR, nor has it been for the last years. Certainly not like Monaco or even Singapore so it wasn't a chance for a win they were throwing away.
Well both MCL and RBR wanted the MGU-K for testing in Silverstone. Renault refused to supply them.
Both MCL and RBR wanted the MGU-K for testing in Hungary. Renault refused to supply them again.

Think Renault just want them to use the MGU-K as guinea pig in real races....
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PhillipM
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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Espresso wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:56 pm
Well both MCL and RBR wanted the MGU-K for testing in Silverstone. Renault refused to supply them.
Both MCL and RBR wanted the MGU-K for testing in Hungary. Renault refused to supply them again.

Think Renault just want them to use the MGU-K as guinea pig in real races....
Bollocks. Mclaren have been using the new MGU-K since Austria! #-o
In practice and in races.

roon
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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DarkSurferZA wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:45 pm
Wow, all this hate against F1 PU manufacturers is really annoying. Happened to Honda for many seasons, and now Renault just because RBR is on the receiving end of it.

Let's just clear up some things and state some facts:
1) RBR had many successful years with Renault, and even the blown diffuser era that was made possible because of Renault was credited to the genious of Adrian and not Renault.
2) For all of the seasons i can recall, when RBR had driveability advantages with the Renault PU, they always played it as "we are down on power".
3) No manufacturer wants to see their engines go up in smoke in a GP. Its bad for them. more so than for the chassis manufacturer.
4) RBR has had more failures this year than McLaren Renault and Renault works team combined. Why do you think this is, especially given that no manufacturer wants to see their engine up in smoke.
5) RBR were offered a new MGU-K by Renault which they turned down. Who's faiult is that?
6) When McLaren switched from Honda to Renault, the self proclaimed "best chassis on the grid" suddenly found itself nowhere, while Honda found a miraculous burst of reliability completing more laps in the STR car than McLaren did with their Renault engine.
7) The Renault PU is not as far off of Ferrari/Merc as the lap times are showing on the RBR, there is time to be made elsewhere.

It's common cause that the Renault engine is not the best, it's common cause that Honda had huge issues the last few seasons, it's common cause that RBR have a really good car.

But FFS, nobody in that paddock (even the folkses at Williams or McLaren) are amatures, there is no conspiracy, and some teams need to be "team" players and learn to win and lose together. Everyone had the opportunity to enter into commercial agreements with whomever they chose, and they all use it to their advantage and detrement at various stages throughout their lifespan on track TOGETHER.

If I were a manufacturer of any component, i would not enter into any commercial agreement with a team who didn't understand that we are a team when we go out there on the track. Even if it means i cant be part of the F1 circus.

McLaren and RBR are the kind of team that really dont understand this. And their fans are just as bad.

Just chill. things arent working, there are problems in the package, let it be resolved or change the package and get on with racing. Also, be careful what you wish for, the grass isn't always greener on the other side, and if RBR switch to Honda and do worse than they do now, there is no one to blame but themselves. There is nowhere to hide after the PU swop.

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Why would you give a bad product a good review? Same for tires. Suppliers aren't teammates.
Last edited by roon on Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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etusch
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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DarkSurferZA wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:45 pm
...
I agree with you on most of what you said. Not all of them. If a brand in motorsport I like it. We like Formula 1 and all manufacturers in it gives us what we like to see. I prefer ferrari more than mercedes as winner, Renault than ferrari and Honda than renault.

roon
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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I think RB are set for a comfortable 3rd place in the constructors. No chance for second or first. No chance for fourth. So they can afford a scorched earth approach with Renault. Even take some DNFs. Or force some DNFs for show. Really they have no incentive nor ability to improve or drop performance at this point. Just stay at third place, which shouldn't be too hard. When/if Honda delivers next year, RB can, all the more, claim that the team had few faults and were bogged down by an engine supplier's product. That may be good for sponsorship and valuating the team. They can make/maintain the case that they were the top team for the previous nine years, only hindered by an engine for the most recent five.

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adrianjordan
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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What if Haas suddenly come on really strong thanks to their Ferrari backing, or Mclaren suddenly discover there was just a single change needed to unlock their car's potential (very unlikely I know)?

We've had half the season, so it stands to reason that another team can score as many, or more, points in the second half.

RBR cannot afford to force DNF's unless they don't care about being 3rd...
Bring on the EV revolution!!

restless
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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DarkSurferZA wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:45 pm
Wow, all this hate against F1 PU manufacturers is really annoying. Happened to Honda for many seasons, and now Renault just because RBR is on the receiving end of it.
5) RBR were offered a new MGU-K by Renault which they turned down. Who's faiult is that?
care to give some proof?
It was clearly said by Cyril that new MGU-K cannot be swapped with the older one. It needs rewiring/position change. Not an easy task. Especially if you'll get penalty when switching.
6) When McLaren switched from Honda to Renault, the self proclaimed "best chassis on the grid" suddenly found itself nowhere, while Honda found a miraculous burst of reliability completing more laps in the STR car than McLaren did with their Renault engine.
And the point is? :wtf:
- second half of 2017 Mc-Honda was pretty reliable
- self proclaimed "best chassis on the grid" - its just that, self proclaimed. Zak, Boulier and Alonso were saying that @Barcelona they'll be best of the rest.... #-o
7) The Renault PU is not as far off of Ferrari/Merc as the lap times are showing on the RBR, there is time to be made elsewhere.
Proof?

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etusch
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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adrianjordan wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 8:33 am
What if Haas suddenly come on really strong thanks to their Ferrari backing, or Mclaren suddenly discover there was just a single change needed to unlock their car's potential (very unlikely I know)?

What if Honda made an engine 1 sec faster than ferrari and Mercedes? This kind of things is not realistic

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Phil
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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DarkSurferZA wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:45 pm
Wow, all this hate against F1 PU manufacturers is really annoying. Happened to Honda for many seasons, and now Renault just because RBR is on the receiving end of it.
IMO the victimization of poor Renault is more annoying. These PU manufacturers wanted these new highly complex power units. Back during the engine freeze period, it was mostly down to the ability and ingenuity of the teams building the chassis and aerodynamics. Not the engine manufacturer, who was merely contracted to supply the engine to their clients.

Then the engine manufacturers wanted a change of game; they wanted to build expensive new engines no one else could. The privateers, aka the "clients" didn't want these engines. And now, with these new engines, a large aspect of the performance falls to an area of the car that no longer is in the hands of the teams themselves building the actual cars.

People can bitch all they want about RedBull, but in reality, RedBull is just protecting their image by laying the blame on the one aspect of the car that is outside their control. Further more, with the complexity of these engines and the contracts involved, it's not even a free market/competition; RedBull can't get the engine(s) they want, because the manufacturer of choice is a direct competitor and would be therefore at a conflict of interest to supply them. This era of "competition" only really works if we'd have 10 works-teams with their own engines competing with each other, rather then 3.5 engine manufacturers supplying themselves while competing with their own clients. #-o

And people wonder why a team like RedBull bitches? You would too, if you were in their shoes. :roll:
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Bill
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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The blue print for these pu regulations came out in 2007 ,they were supposed to be raced in 2011 but Ferrari and Renault said the were no ready so they introduced in 2014 .fia came up with the engines not the teams

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MtthsMlw
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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etusch
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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So Lando Norris Gasly or Sainz?

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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I thought Marko hated Sainz and didnt want him next to Max again. So has to be Gasly. Surely Mclaren wont let Lando go to RedBull.

Ricciardo to Renault,
Sainz to Toro Rosso
Norris to Toro Rosso
Gasly to RedBull
Ocon to stay put
Perez to stay put
Hulk to stay put
Hartley out

is my Guess

edit: or Sainz to Mclaren to replace Fernando who goes to IndyCar
GoLandoGo
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