2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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jz11
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by jz11 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:09 am

GhostF1 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:11 am
That is an absolute reach... I've seen a side to Ricciardo this season that I haven't really seen before. He is obsessed with this 1st/2nd driver business and will not tolerate the idea of NOT being labelled as "1st driver"..
I think it's the way you look at a half of a cup of water sort of thing, it may be half full or half empty, I see him trying to do everything to NOT be labeled as #2 driver (as opposed to what you're saying him trying to get the #1 spot), which would surely happen in next couple years at RB, you can't really deny they have their #1 driver already, and they've done it before, so there is absolutely no reason not to think (apart Horner denying that ofc) that they won't do it again

and if Dan would stay at RB, get his #2 label, then it is all over for his career and chances of getting WDC, so the move to any other place was pretty logical, the only reason to stay would be if the car next year would be a really strong contender for championship (that might be worth it to try and fight the team and Max to win the championship), and it probably won't be in 2019, so there was basically no reason for him to stay even if the money was good, it would destroy his image and would be pretty hard on him mentally as well

WaikeCU
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by WaikeCU » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:20 am

It could be signals that triggered the way Ricciardo is thinking and it all got to his head. It all adds up to the decision he made. If you no longer feeling comfortable with your employer I think you would seek for a new challenge as well. I think key moments in the past three seasons have been decisive to his move. I think the following key moments are:

- Spain 2016: He was put on a different strategy while leading the race and eventually it ended up in a glorious debut win for Max. (Money time for the Red Bull brand) A win here was up for grabs for Dan.
- Hungary 2017: Of course nobody will know how the team handled it and if it reflects what was communicated with the press. Dan felt really uncomfortable with how Max casually asked him to hangout for a beer or two after all what had happened a few hours before.
- Baku 2018: Both were at fault and needed to apologize to the team. This was communicated to the press. Not sure how they've handled it truly.
- Red Bull Renault relationship: no comments needed
- Red Bull Honda future: unsure on how the performance will be better or even worse.
- Becoming a Renault factory driver next season

dxpetrov
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by dxpetrov » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:27 am

You guys can't really even read what's written. It's not about being given #2 status, but naturally occupying it due to Max's strength and competitiveness & being beaten by him. If you still live in a bubble that somehow Ric's on the same, or higher, level as Max that another discussion, and it's on the edge of being Utopian. And don't give me that Cr@p about leader board score, please. The reality is that Max is JUST faster, from race to race, and Dan want's to move ASAP to retain his credibility for possible future move to Mercedes or Ferrari, if possibility ever occurs.
CH is such down to earth guy and he should never be dismissed in such blatant way as some of you constantly try.

Mansell89
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Mansell89 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:32 am

Maybe Ricc does see Max as a threat, and rightly so. Despite Horner saying they can race (and to be fair he’s never stopped them), the history with Vettel and Webber means you cannot trust them. With Honda coming next year, and the likelihood of them taking a couple of years to see the fruits of the new partnership, a two year deal with Renault- a growing works team- is the logical exit gamble.

The key to all of this is the contract length- Being available in 2021 is what matters and at that point Ricciardo will know enough about Renault to decide if they’re likely to be in the hunt in the new regulations, or whether seats are (highly likely) available at Merc, Ferrari, and McLaren.

Sieper
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Sieper » Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:33 am

WaikeCU wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:20 am
It could be signals that triggered the way Ricciardo is thinking and it all got to his head. It all adds up to the decision he made. If you no longer feeling comfortable with your employer I think you would seek for a new challenge as well. I think key moments in the past three seasons have been decisive to his move. I think the following key moments are:

- Spain 2016: He was put on a different strategy while leading the race and eventually it ended up in a glorious debut win for Max. (Money time for the Red Bull brand) A win here was up for grabs for Dan.
- Hungary 2017: Of course nobody will know how the team handled it and if it reflects what was communicated with the press. Dan felt really uncomfortable with how Max casually asked him to hangout for a beer or two after all what had happened a few hours before.
- Baku 2018: Both were at fault and needed to apologize to the team. This was communicated to the press. Not sure how they've handled it truly.
- Red Bull Renault relationship: no comments needed
- Red Bull Honda future: unsure on how the performance will be better or even worse.
- Becoming a Renault factory driver next season
In SPAIN 2016 Dan was on the A strategy, just like Vettel (they were on the same strategy). Or is Vettel now also to be seen as the implied number 2 driver at Ferrari by being asked to have this less then optimal strategy for that race so that Kimi could challenge for the win? And even though Dan had an extra pit stop as opposed to Max he still had a puncture on his last stint (whilst Max kept his tires alive with even a pitstop less).

Dan wasn't maltreated there, both teams chose to split their strategies and put Dan and Seb on one strategy and Kimi and Max on another and Max made it work the best of all. Kimi and Max (at that point) were clearly not the implied number one drivers. Kimi is still being mistreated every other race by Ferrari whilst Dan never was.

Pany
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Pany » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:08 am

Massa was also very fast but......

Pany
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Pany » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:11 am

I totally agree,good point. If renault wants to go top, must beat redbull first. Difficoult task for the next 2 season, but with Ricciardo out of redbul would be less difficoult. I dont like it because i like Ricciardo in redbul
roon wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:01 am
Was this a strategic disruption of RB by Renault? RB are all that stands between Renault and third place, next year. Those extra dollars spent on Ricciardo's salary may well buy them enough points for it to make sense/break even.

AngusF1
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by AngusF1 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:20 am

GhostF1 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:11 am
That is an absolute reach... I've seen a side to Ricciardo this season that I haven't really seen before. He is obsessed with this 1st/2nd driver business and will not tolerate the idea of NOT being labelled as "1st driver"..
He could well desire a #1 spot highly, that's a fairly reasonable assessment. And.... as he should! It's looking like the end years of the current formula (2019-2020) will be highly competitive and that a #1 status will be very very handy for winning a championship. Ricciardo deserves one of those positions.

He's at the height of his abilities, is the 2nd or 3rd best driver in the sport, has put in the hard yards with Red Bull for ten (!) years, has beaten his team mate for 2 1/2 years in a row, and is Red Bull's best shot at a title in a car which is unlikely to be dominant due to his ability to maximise points return. Further, his team mate at 20 years old has all the time in the world to take a supporting role and learn under his tutelage. Instead Red Bull have indicated they'll give notional equal treatment, with de-facto #1 in the case of conflict to his team mate. Of course he left.

TwanV
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by TwanV » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:58 am

Some arguments here are a bit weird.. VES is faster than RIC, so RIC should leave so that he can capitalize later on a (self-proclaimed) earned seat at a top team because people wouldn't have noticed. This whole issue wouldn't be a problem if he was faster, which is kind of the elephant in the room. I believe Horner is right on his motivation. And.. I don't really blame him for leaving, but it is a form of surrender in one way or another. Don't take me wrong, at this stage in his career I definitely think he needed to act if he is ever going to be world-champion, and it doesn't hurt to get rich in the process, but it's going to be harder to shine in a Renault than in a Red Bull car to re-earn that tier, particularly with hulk being an unknown quantity. If he hoses hulk completely next year it's a different story but I don't see that happening.

marvin78
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by marvin78 » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:35 am

Some would say it does not matter who is faster, it matters, who is better. From the current perspective I would say that's Ricciardo. But Verstappen is young and was clearly to young for F1 when he got there. He suffers from that until now because he did not learn a few things that other learn in the youth and that you cannot learn in F1. But I think he can get there if he is not stubborn. He is very very fast...but if he is better than a few others has yet to be proved.

carisi2k
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by carisi2k » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:55 am

Ricciardo is leaving for 70 million reasons. Renault had the best offer and Red Bull signing max up last year just made Daniel realise that he didn't want to become Mark Webber Mk 2.0.

WaikeCU
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by WaikeCU » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:59 am

TwanV wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:58 am
Some arguments here are a bit weird.. VES is faster than RIC, so RIC should leave so that he can capitalize later on a (self-proclaimed) earned seat at a top team because people wouldn't have noticed. This whole issue wouldn't be a problem if he was faster, which is kind of the elephant in the room. I believe Horner is right on his motivation. And.. I don't really blame him for leaving, but it is a form of surrender in one way or another. Don't take me wrong, at this stage in his career I definitely think he needed to act if he is ever going to be world-champion, and it doesn't hurt to get rich in the process, but it's going to be harder to shine in a Renault than in a Red Bull car to re-earn that tier, particularly with hulk being an unknown quantity. If he hoses hulk completely next year it's a different story but I don't see that happening.
Let's see. All he needs to do is to outperform the potential of that Renault. I don't expect him to win any races next season, but if he can replicate somewhat what Kubica did in 2010, then that would put him in the limelight for 2020. I just hope he doesn't under estimate Hulkenberg's capabilities.

It's also a motivation for the Renault team to work better for next season with a GP winner behind the wheel of that Renault. Next season will be exactly 10 years since Renault last won a GP.

Phil
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Phil » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:25 pm

AngusF1 wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:20 am
He could well desire a #1 spot highly, that's a fairly reasonable assessment. And.... as he should! It's looking like the end years of the current formula (2019-2020) will be highly competitive and that a #1 status will be very very handy for winning a championship. Ricciardo deserves one of those positions.
You guys are mad. There is no #1 status. #-o Such a status would be limiting to the team itself, if for whatever reason, the #2 guy significantly outperforms the #1, or if for whatever reason through circumstance, sheer luck or silly mistakes, the #1 ends up behind. To then be limited by a contractual agreement where a #1 and #2 are stipulated makes little sense, for any team.

What could be stipulated might be better support, better engineers, priority on updates etc, but even those are highly subjective and not enforceable in reality. Which are the better engineers in a pond of 100ths of employees? Are the newer updates always better? In the end, every team is the employer and the team is greater than one or two drivers. If you have the 3rd best car on the grid and arguably the best chassis and potential to supply a championship winning car, the drivers come to you and not the other way around. Why on earth should a driver who has 1.) never won a championship 2.) being mostly beaten in qualifying have any leverage in asking for a supposedly better status within the team that isn't enforceable anyway?

It makes zero sense.

In the end, these contracts come down to salary, duration and exit clauses and marketing time/commitments. They perhaps also stipulate a certain amount of 'freedom' for engagement on track against your team-mate. E.g. does the contract stipulate that they are free to race or if it's up to the team to make that determination by team-orders. This could be important, but if the team you are hoping to sign a lucrative contract for happens to be a desirable one, how much leverage and bargaining worth as a driver can you bring to the table?

Fact of the matter is; Max has been faster. He may be less consistent, prone to more errors, but the qualifying battle is quite shattering to Daniel even if you discount the technical issues that prevented him of a fair fight. That's the reality of it. It doesn't mean Daniel is slow, is also slower on race pace, doesn't have his worth or that he isn't still one of the best drivers on the grid. He may well be, but against Max and on 1-lap pace, there is that risk that his stock and attractiveness towards other teams might take a hit if he continues to be comprehensively beaten.

So in the end, it's good for Dan, that he frees himself from the RedBull family. RB have shown time and time again how ruthless they are if they are unhappy with ones performance. Kvyat is testament to that, but also earlier drivers too (Hartley, Buemi etc) that got the axe. By going to Renault and measuring himself against perhaps a potentially slower but known quality driver (Hulkenberg), his stock may increase and make him a more probable candidate for 2021.


Lastly, I'd also like to note that I can't remember any blatant favoritism against Daniel Ricciardo. Even in 2014, he had the full support of the team, even against the 4 time WDC champion driving alongside him. They allowed him to race, they allowed him to pass and on occasion also allowed him by through team-orders. This should be evidence enough that there was no #1 status stipulated in any contract, not even for the 4 time WDC champion. Why should there be now in regards to either Dan or Max?
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Raleigh
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Raleigh » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:14 pm

Horner says Alonso not in contention for seat, citing age and “causes a bit of chaos everywhere he’s gone”. http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/243 ... uses-chaos
Last edited by Raleigh on Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

RonDennis
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by RonDennis » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:23 pm

carisi2k wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:55 am
Ricciardo is leaving for 70 million reasons. Renault had the best offer and Red Bull signing max up last year just made Daniel realise that he didn't want to become Mark Webber Mk 2.0.
You're delusional if you believe that Ricciardo will earn 35 million yearly.