2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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adrianjordan
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by adrianjordan » Sun Aug 12, 2018 8:49 pm

An even wiser man once said, to finish first, first you must finish.

Personally I think that Max and Daniel are similar to Senna and Prost. One is faster but closer to the ragged edge, the other not quite as fast over an ultimate lap, but more willing to play the long game and rack up points. Both equally good in different ways.
In 2007 I had the chance to go to a meet-and-greet with an F1 test driver. I decided not to as I didn't think he'd even amount to much...he was the BMW Sauber test driver and his name was Sebastian Vettel...

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by djos » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:06 pm

GPR-A wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:49 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:22 pm
GPR-A wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:17 am
The guy is getting beaten by a kid and found to be nowhere when it is wet and he is going to challenge Hamilton? There is a limit to have emotions and follow a driver, but to this level?

Despite Red Bull's stance that, they wanted to keep him, he is leaving the team. What boat was Ric rocking in RB. Clearly, Horner is right. Ric's own boat is rocking.
You have a different definition of beating than I do. To me scoring more points and victories than the other guy is beating. Sunday is where points are awarded and so Sunday is when the results matter.
You should also be thankful to Renault for their incredible reliability, which has allowed Ric to be ahead on points. Ponder upon this. Since last year, almost every time Max has had a mechanical DNF, he was ahead of Ric and almost every time Ric had a mechanical DNF, he was behind Max! Check those facts out. So you are a wise man, should be able to calculate who lost more.
And how many times has Max sabotaged his own race compared to Dan? Dan doesn't make stupid moves that put his opponent and himself in danger of crashing, Max does which is another reason Dan is cleaning up on points and race wins.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by carisi2k » Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:43 pm

Renault Reliability. I think I just broke a rib after laughing so hard about those 2 words in the same sentence in 2018. Both Daniel and Max have had 4 retirements each this year. Daniel also had that spectacular blow up in china in Q1 and had to pedal his car home for the win in Monaco.

I am extremely worried about this move to Renault he is making. Maybe the factory Renaults have been reliable but they have also been about 1 second a lap slower then the Red Bull. Look at how easy Daniel was able to pass all of the lower order runners at Hungary to show you how fast that car is. The hardest car to pass was the Haas of KMag.

I also don't buy this packaging crap people have been talking about. This is the fifth year they have had the renault pu in their car and the renault's engine layout hasn't changed that much. It is and should be the most optimized of all the Renault powered cars and shows this frequently by being that 1+ second a lap faster then the factory Renault and the Mclaren. If you have problems with your packaging you end up going slower and not faster. If the packaging is crap you don't win 3 races including a race when part of the PU crapped out.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by NathanOlder » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 pm

Daniel has had more retirements through mechanical issues than Max has in the last 18months, thats a fact.
Yet everyone thinks Max is the unlucky one.
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djos
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by djos » Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:17 pm

NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 pm
Daniel has had more retirements through mechanical issues than Max has in the last 18months, thats a fact.
Yet everyone thinks Max is the unlucky one.
Exactly, Max makes his own bad luck by driving recklessly, Monaco, Baku and China are all great examples of him throwing away good results.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by WaikeCU » Mon Aug 13, 2018 9:19 am

djos wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:17 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 pm
Daniel has had more retirements through mechanical issues than Max has in the last 18months, thats a fact.
Yet everyone thinks Max is the unlucky one.
Exactly, Max makes his own bad luck by driving recklessly, Monaco, Baku and China are all great examples of him throwing away good results.
What about at the Melbourne opener? Pushing so hard and desperately to get by Magnussen, he wore out his tires and spun trying to overtake that Haas.

You forgot about Bahrain as well. Battling Lewis so hard until he punctures his own tire when the two collided. Afterwards Lewis thoughts about the battle says pretty much enough as well.

And Barcelona where he damaged his front wing trying to overtake Lance Stroll.

These are all unnecessary risks and mistakes that he has made.

djos
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by djos » Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:05 am

He has quite the reckless record hasn't he!
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

dren
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by dren » Mon Aug 13, 2018 11:45 am

It appeared Max started the season thinking he had a chance at the title, he was just trying too hard. He's settled down a bit since.
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Starscreamer » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:16 pm

djos wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:17 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 pm
Daniel has had more retirements through mechanical issues than Max has in the last 18months, thats a fact.
Yet everyone thinks Max is the unlucky one.
Exactly, Max makes his own bad luck by driving recklessly, Monaco, Baku and China are all great examples of him throwing away good results.
Baku ??? that was a race incident #-o ( in my opinion more Daniel fault )

Yes this year Max is more involved by crashes then all years before.
But 2017 he was always in a better position then Daniel for retirement with mechanical issues.
Both drivers are great but I think Max is faster. He needs only a little bit more experince
#33 2 THE MAX V3RSTAPP3N

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by NathanOlder » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:39 pm

maybe, although i see it that he needs to give up a little of that 'on the ragged edge' speed to be able to finish more often.

So to be championship contending, he needs to slow down a tiny bit to gain the consistency required to win a championship, that will then probably put his pace level with Ric.
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Ground Effect » Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:47 pm

Starscreamer wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 12:16 pm
djos wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:17 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 pm
Daniel has had more retirements through mechanical issues than Max has in the last 18months, thats a fact.
Yet everyone thinks Max is the unlucky one.
Exactly, Max makes his own bad luck by driving recklessly, Monaco, Baku and China are all great examples of him throwing away good results.
Baku ??? that was a race incident #-o ( in my opinion more Daniel fault )

Yes this year Max is more involved by crashes then all years before.
But 2017 he was always in a better position then Daniel for retirement with mechanical issues.
Both drivers are great but I think Max is faster. He needs only a little bit more experince
In Ross Brawn's opinion, Ricciardo was a mere passenger in the incident due to the wake off Max's car due to his multiple direction changes trying to defend. It had been warned over the last two seasons that Max would cause a crash with his defending, thankfully, nobody was hurt. Also thankfully, it was his own team mate he took out.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

AngusF1
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by AngusF1 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:04 pm

So let us consider... Vettel was beaten by his younger upstart teammate in qualifying 10-9, race results 11-3, points 238-167 and had only ever won in the best car. This was just a temporary run of poor form due to boredom and made him good enough to drive for Ferrari.
(source: http://grandprixrankings.com/compare/20 ... ricciardo/)

Ricciardo, against his younger upstart teammate (apparently the fastest driver since Jehu rode a chariot) has been slower in qualifying only, has won the points 2 1/2 years in a row and scores continual victories in the 3rd best car. This apparently makes him "beaten" and has his "stocks heading downward" and good enough only for the 6th best seat in F1 as an informal number-2 driver.

Does F1 need a shake up to incentivise the best teams to hire all the best drivers or what?

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Sieper » Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:54 pm

Angus, You beat your teammate (on points) at the end of the season (or at the moment that the points difference is too big to overcome), the qualifying battle can be considered won earlier (when the gap gets too big to end equal). So at this moment (halfway through the season, Ricci is up on points, but if you have followed Max and Ricci on a per race basis you will also have seen that Max was already very close since Austria again (but since he had 2 DNF's caused by technical problems (and Ricci one). otherwise Max would have already been ahead on points in this summer stop despite Ricci winning 2 races in the first season half. You cannot really win 2,5 years, you win 2 or 3 years. First year Max came after 6 races in an STR and second year he had a lot of technical problems (granted, Ricci too) but it had a large impact on the overall season outcome (for both). For this season I am hoping Max will finish ahead, I think he will.

AngusF1
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by AngusF1 » Mon Aug 13, 2018 3:35 pm

Sieper wrote:
Mon Aug 13, 2018 1:54 pm
Angus...
All very well, but I think you're missing the direction of my argument. I'm comparing Vettel and Ricciardo's results and the seats it gave them access to.

Vettel did well in the best car against an old man, then got pasted by Ricciardo. This was good enough for the third-best seat in F1.

Ricciardo pasted Vettel, has arguably out-competed the (apparent) second coming of Christ and wins while driving a snail. In F1 today this is good enough for only the sixth best seat as a #2 patsy.

Vettel's place was deserved, and based on performance Ricciardo ought to have access to a similar seat, but teams just don't have enough incentive to hire the best drivers. This is in stark contrast to say MotoGP where the best teams fight to hire the absolute best pair they can get. Time for 1500hp, half the downforce and no power steering?

Sieper
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Sieper » Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:25 pm

Well, I totally disagree with the compared merits of the current two RBR drivers with you.

The fact that you feel you have to write something as "the second coming of christ" or "patsy" which all sounds very degrading to me already makes very clear what your position is.

I do agree it would be cool if the teams strive for the best 2 drivers they can get, but since (especially) Ferrari doesn't play that game the others more or less are forced to not do that as well. Rosberg wasn't a number 2 (or at least he fought until he achieved what he set out to) but Bottas has already received several call's/task a number 2 gets. I think now that Ricciardo has decided to pack his bags RBR will also go more for a 1 - 2 set-up. The opposite of what we both want. Means drivers like ALO are out of a top seat.