2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

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GTO99
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by GTO99 » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:35 am

I have a feeling RBR is fracking up Danny's car.
Just a funny feeling...nothing to substantiate it.
Let's see how his car performs in the final 2 races.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Morteza » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:12 pm

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

djos
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by djos » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:50 pm

GTO99 wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:35 am
I have a feeling RBR is fracking up Danny's car.
Just a funny feeling...nothing to substantiate it.
Let's see how his car performs in the final 2 races.
I'm not convinced that's the case, it's more likely that RedBull are running the Renault PU too close to the edge of its operating limits for too long.

They haven't had the factory style relationship with Renault for many years now, so they are forced to work with whatever Renault gives them.

I'm glad that Dan's leaving tho, the level of arrogance and entitlement that comes from the Verstappen camp is simply insane. It doesn't matter if Dan and Max genuinely like each other, with Jos in the background causing trouble and propping up his sons ego, it was never going to end well for Dan.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:33 pm

Dan Ric has had more DNFs than anyone on the grid and half of those of other drivers have been the result of "incidents" rather than mechanical failure. 8 DNFs in 19 races is just ridiculous. Indeed, it reminds me of the 1990s and before, where some races had half the field or more drop out through mechanical failures. No wonder he's throwing his toys about. I would too.
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Sieper » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:39 pm

Djos, I am glad to read, despite you being a massive Dan supporter very clearly, you aren’t one who is in the Yeah but RBR is screwing his car up on purpose team. I just wished you eased up on the derogatory remarks on the MV camp. It has little place on a forum like this.

I use the same restrain when I describe your man, I too see glimps of traits I don’t like there but you dont see me making those kind of remarks every few hours in this thread. There is no need. Emotions run high, F1 is a mentally very challenging sport, both for the drivers as well as their fans (when they are as invested as you (and I) clearly are.

As posted by Morteza, Dan is over the disappointment and going for his final two races ar RBR, try and do the same.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by djos » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:17 am

Sieper wrote:
Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:39 pm
Djos, I am glad to read, despite you being a massive Dan supporter very clearly, you aren’t one who is in the Yeah but RBR is screwing his car up on purpose team. I just wished you eased up on the derogatory remarks on the MV camp. It has little place on a forum like this.

I use the same restrain when I describe your man, I too see glimps of traits I don’t like there but you dont see me making those kind of remarks every few hours in this thread. There is no need. Emotions run high, F1 is a mentally very challenging sport, both for the drivers as well as their fans (when they are as invested as you (and I) clearly are.

As posted by Morteza, Dan is over the disappointment and going for his final two races ar RBR, try and do the same.
There isnt any point in RBR shooting themselves like this so it's just not logical to consider internal sabotage as an option .. imo.

I like Max a lot, I really enjoy watching him when he's at his best - the thing is, you dont hear sour grapes coming from anyone but Jos and it's not a long bow to draw that his attitude directly impacts Max's. Being upset you missed pole is perfectly reasonable, however the comments made by Jos were not imo. Dan had a string of issues outside his control and getting a pole after everything he's been through since Monaco must have felt like winning the WDC after that.

I will say this tho, the rubbish Dan tried in Qually at one of the races (I forget which) WRT swapping places was poor form and I dont ever wish to see a repeat of that.

I may "support" a driver, but I wont excuse bad behaviour - it's like political parties for me, I have a preferred party, but I wont make excuses for them doing the wrong thing .... the world is imo far too tribal and willing to ignore the bad that comes from the "camp" they support regardless. If we are going to survive as a species, imo we need to call a spade a spade and not ignore wrongdoing from anyone .... even in sport, actually especially in sport because our kids look up to sportsman, even if they shouldnt.

/End rant about human failings #-o
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Phil » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:09 am

For all the fuzz about Dan’s DNF, the biggest disappointment to me as a supporter was his miserable start of the race. That’s the big pink elephant in the room right there. Would have been nice to see him on that podium sure, but he really should have done better from pole, that’s the reality of it.
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by djos » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:15 am

Phil wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:09 am
For all the fuzz about Dan’s DNF, the biggest disappointment to me as a supporter was his miserable start of the race. That’s the big pink elephant in the room right there. Would have been nice to see him on that podium sure, but he really should have done better from pole, that’s the reality of it.
I recall seeing comments that it was related to his PU - it was mentioned that all his practise starts all weekend had been perfect but the PU inexplicably bogged down at the start and it wasn't driver error.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by jz11 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:18 am

listen to the Maxes radio starting from around 20min, I think there is little doubt that pit crew can update some engine parameters from their end:

djos
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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by djos » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:51 am

djos wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:15 am
Phil wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:09 am
For all the fuzz about Dan’s DNF, the biggest disappointment to me as a supporter was his miserable start of the race. That’s the big pink elephant in the room right there. Would have been nice to see him on that podium sure, but he really should have done better from pole, that’s the reality of it.
I recall seeing comments that it was related to his PU - it was mentioned that all his practise starts all weekend had been perfect but the PU inexplicably bogged down at the start and it wasn't driver error.
Actually I'm now hearing it was a clutch thrust bearing failure.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Laserguru » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:20 am

jz11 wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:18 am
listen to the Maxes radio starting from around 20min, I think there is little doubt that pit crew can update some engine parameters from their end:
rzBVvboescs
Never considered it as a team sport? His racing engineer frequently uses ‘we’ when referring to the car and driver. Max was asked to change his engine settings before his engineer confirmed ‘we’ turned the engine down. ‘Fuel 4 position 2’ 21:36.

But I agree it is more fun to take things literally.

I petty the crew when they told Max “we are staying out” 20:15. I think there is little doubt nobody was allowed to get in. All rb team members standing in the pitlane in front of their pitbox had to stay there. This is how they influenced Mercedes tire strategy.

https://m.soundcloud.com/matt-betros/ma ... an-gp-2018
Engineering thrives on communication.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Juzh » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:52 am

djos wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:51 am
djos wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:15 am
Phil wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:09 am
For all the fuzz about Dan’s DNF, the biggest disappointment to me as a supporter was his miserable start of the race. That’s the big pink elephant in the room right there. Would have been nice to see him on that podium sure, but he really should have done better from pole, that’s the reality of it.
I recall seeing comments that it was related to his PU - it was mentioned that all his practise starts all weekend had been perfect but the PU inexplicably bogged down at the start and it wasn't driver error.
Actually I'm now hearing it was a clutch thrust bearing failure.
It wasn't the PU, neither was it the clutch at fault at that time. He simply got too much wheelspin in first gear just after initial launch, which was actually spot on. Can happen to anyone.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by Sieper » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:50 am

Djos, thanks for your earlier reply on my previous post, much appreciated! I agree you should always call things by its name, just not let the upset do the talk.

So here is a link to a small post race talk between Peter Scarborough (Scarbs) and Peter Windsor. If I understand Scarbs correctly he more or less (at least partly) blames the later clutch failure on the wheelspin at start (both for Danny here as well as for Max in Austria 2017). Or I might have missed the point, In any case, an interesting listen:

https://youtu.be/jh4CvICZytA

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by djos » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:04 am

Sieper wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:50 am
Djos, thanks for your earlier reply on my previous post, much appreciated! I agree you should always call things by its name, just not let the upset do the talk.

So here is a link to a small post race talk between Peter Scarborough (Scarbs) and Peter Windsor. If I understand Scarbs correctly he more or less (at least partly) blames the later clutch failure on the wheelspin at start (both for Danny here as well as for Max in Austria 2017). Or I might have missed the point, In any case, an interesting listen:

https://youtu.be/jh4CvICZytA
Cheers for the link, some excellent points in there. 8)
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Re: 2018 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Tag Heuer (Renault)

Post by jz11 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:57 pm

Laserguru wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:20 am
jz11 wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:18 am
listen to the Maxes radio starting from around 20min, I think there is little doubt that pit crew can update some engine parameters from their end:
rzBVvboescs
Never considered it as a team sport? His racing engineer frequently uses ‘we’ when referring to the car and driver. Max was asked to change his engine settings before his engineer confirmed ‘we’ turned the engine down. ‘Fuel 4 position 2’ 21:36.

But I agree it is more fun to take things literally.

I petty the crew when they told Max “we are staying out” 20:15. I think there is little doubt nobody was allowed to get in. All rb team members standing in the pitlane in front of their pitbox had to stay there. This is how they influenced Mercedes tire strategy.

https://m.soundcloud.com/matt-betros/ma ... an-gp-2018
I'm not a native English speaker, but I've learned the language some 30 years ago and been using it to communicate since then on a regular basis, I have zero problem picking up accents, subtle messages and so on, like you being a *ick in your comment, you added absolutely nothing to the subject at all, in fact, you subjectively intentionally interpreted the meaning of what was said in a wrong (grammatically speaking) way to suit your narrative

if Max was using the "we" for team+him, he would have said something along the lines of - do I need to adjust X to save the engine, or - do we need to adjust X to turn the engine down, to which his race engineer would say - no, we're fine etc.
Max saying - YOU need to do X to save the engine, implies a completely different thing, where "we" as you explained, doesn't fit at all, I've communicated with a number of Dutch people, and people from neighboring NL, and they never confused we with I or you, like you would suggest,because Max might be so young, he is under pressure, racing etc, which is nonsense IMO, at that point in the race they are cruising, now, I haven't raced in F1, nor have I raced open wheel cars, but when I raced rally cars some 20 years ago, which is somewhat more stressful than driving around circuit to pre calculated lap time, I never ever made an error addressing someone, or more people with the wrong noun

I haven't red F1 rule book for past couple years, but I vaguely remember that communication with the car (except radio messages) was supposed to be one way, meaning - the car only sends data to pits, pit crew cannot send any commands and parameters back, and I was looking for someone more knowledgeable, who has been following technical rules more closely to say - this is still the case, the radio message was a blunder, or - they have changed X and Y in the rule book allowing certain data to be sent to the car

because, if it indeed is the case that they can send something, then that radio conversation makes perfect sense the way you hear it, without putting your own meaning into what has been said, now which was is true?

The English sounding guy saying "we" is perfectly fine the way you interpret it by him meaning team+max, but then again, if Max eventually fiddled with the controls and set them certain way, the conversation would sound something like - I did what you asked, is everything ok now, to what engineer would say something like - yes, we have adjusted the engine, but that isn't really like it sounded there in that radio conversation