2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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RZS10
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by RZS10 » Sat May 12, 2018 11:34 am

Why are they allowed to run an illegal car again (was technically illegal in the first three races) ?

If those mirrors are illegal, they should force them to remove them right away and not from the next race - especially since they could ask them to run the mirror cams which would essentially force them to go back to the standard ones ....

F1NAC
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by F1NAC » Sat May 12, 2018 11:39 am

RZS10 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 11:34 am
Why are they allowed to run an illegal car again (was technically illegal in the first three races) ?

If those mirrors are illegal, they should force them to remove them right away and not from the next race - especially since they could ask them to run the mirror cams which would essentially force them to go back to the standard ones ....
Well. Monaco 2012 comes to mind. When RB's hole in the floor was declared illegal and they then removed that for Canadian GP.

Grey areas...

LM10
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by LM10 » Sat May 12, 2018 11:54 am

RZS10 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 11:34 am
Why are they allowed to run an illegal car again (was technically illegal in the first three races) ?

If those mirrors are illegal, they should force them to remove them right away and not from the next race - especially since they could ask them to run the mirror cams which would essentially force them to go back to the standard ones ....
Ferrari's car was technically illegal in the first 3 races? Huh?

RZS10
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by RZS10 » Sat May 12, 2018 12:04 pm

The three little additions to the mirror they had to add for Baku because one could see the tarmac from above ... so technically (in the 'strictly looking at it' meaning) the car was illegal in the first three races

LM10
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by LM10 » Sat May 12, 2018 12:08 pm

RZS10 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:04 pm
The three little additions to the mirror they had to add for Baku because one could see the tarmac from above ... so technically (in the 'strictly looking at it' meaning) the car was illegal in the first three races
Come on.. are you serious? :lol: This was only an optical thing if you looked from bird view. It didn't increase their performance in any way. Just tells you that the opponents try everything possible to weaken the strongest car as it was RBR who wanted FIA to investigate this particular thing.
Now it's the same thing with the mirrors. Not illegal at first, but teams made FIA declare it as illegal. That's what it is.

RZS10
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by RZS10 » Sat May 12, 2018 12:23 pm

yea i'm serious but you're unable to distinguish between "techncially illegal" and just plain "illegal" ... i'm already acknowledging that it did not give them an advantage ...

with the winged mirrors however it's quite clear they're there for performance ... Ferrari tried some bullshit reasoning (was it "it's structural"?) and fortunately the FIA shut it down before this area got exploited too badly ...

I just don't understand why they're allowed to use them when they could be asked to remove them right away (for the mirror cams) - so it's not that the FIA is doing things to hurt Ferrari (as you implied) - on the contrary they are allowing them to keep illegal parts which (surely) improve aero

My guess is that some of the changes on the rear wing work with those illegal wings and removing them would have a negative impact on the overall aero so ... yea

Vanja #66
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Vanja #66 » Sat May 12, 2018 12:27 pm

RZS10 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 11:34 am
Why are they allowed to run an illegal car again (was technically illegal in the first three races) ?

If those mirrors are illegal, they should force them to remove them right away and not from the next race - especially since they could ask them to run the mirror cams which would essentially force them to go back to the standard ones ....
Because scrutineering team deemed it legal. When you get a sticker, you can race with that car and all the parts that pass the scrutiny.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

#Aerogimli
#DwarvesAreNaturalSprinters
#BlessYouLaddie

LM10
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by LM10 » Sat May 12, 2018 12:33 pm

RZS10 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:23 pm
yea i'm serious but you're unable to distinguish between "techncially illegal" and just plain "illegal" ... i'm already acknowledging that it did not give them an advantage ...

with the winged mirrors however it's quite clear they're there for performance ... Ferrari tried some bullshit reasoning (was it "it's structural"?) and fortunately the FIA shut it down before this area got exploited too badly ...

I just don't understand why they're allowed to use them when they could be asked to remove them right away (for the mirror cams) - so it's not that the FIA is doing things to hurt Ferrari (as you implied) - on the contrary they are allowing them to keep illegal parts which (surely) improve aero

My guess is that some of the changes on the rear wing work with those illegal wings and removing them would have a negative impact on the overall aero so ... yea
I highly doubt that anywhere in the rule books there was a part which told that wings on the mirror which are attached to the halo are illegal. They surely didn't think about that.
Now, Ferrari has done it, it passed scrutineering at first (so it was legal), but the FIA changed the rules after the teams complained about it.

Zynerji
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Zynerji » Sat May 12, 2018 12:42 pm

Post- development rule changes should be an offense that a tream can sue the FIA to recover development expenses. I'm sure, like they do with everything else, had checked this with the FIA long before making a carbon piece, for legality, and apparently got the go ahead.

I felt this way with FRIC removal as well as the late suspension change last year, and especially the 2010 rules that new teams signed up to and got changed later...

Nothing makes me want to turn off the TV more than this, as it immediately turns gold into sh1t.

RZS10
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by RZS10 » Sat May 12, 2018 12:50 pm

I guess they also have to be told to use the mirror cams before the weekend so that their setup doesn't get compromised ... makes sense

Has anyone actually seen the document? I looked for it on the fia site and couldn't find anything

The mirrors (just like most other parts) are limited in size and positioning by 'boxes' in a 3D space - that box supposedly did not change, the only thing that changed was the mounting, so unless they've changed the size of the box with some very poor wording i don't understand how that wing was deemed legal in the first place - bc if the box is the same there's nothing that would stop them from putting the wing there with a chassis mounted mirror (?)

F1NAC
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by F1NAC » Sat May 12, 2018 1:14 pm

What's the point of scrutineering then? It's just ridiculous .

Zynerji
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Zynerji » Sat May 12, 2018 1:43 pm

F1NAC wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 1:14 pm
What's the point of scrutineering then? It's just ridiculous .
Fully agreed. Things like this make F1 and the FIA appear illegitimate.

Moose
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Moose » Sun May 13, 2018 4:37 am

LM10 wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:33 pm
I highly doubt that anywhere in the rule books there was a part which told that wings on the mirror which are attached to the halo are illegal. They surely didn't think about that.
Now, Ferrari has done it, it passed scrutineering at first (so it was legal), but the FIA changed the rules after the teams complained about it.
There is - Rule 3.5.2 a
F1 Technical Regulations wrote:Other than the rear view mirrors (including their housings and mountings), each with a maximum area of 20000mm2 and 14000 mm2 when viewed from directly above or directly from the side respectively, no bodywork situated more than 330mm behind the front wheel centre line and more than 330mm forward of the rear wheel centre line, which is more than 600mm above the reference plane, may be more than 350mm from the car centre plane.
Those wings are neither mirror housings, nor mirror mounts, therefore they're illegal bodywork.
Zynerji wrote:
Sat May 12, 2018 12:42 pm
Post- development rule changes should be an offense that a tream can sue the FIA to recover development expenses. I'm sure, like they do with everything else, had checked this with the FIA long before making a carbon piece, for legality, and apparently got the go ahead.
This isn't a post-development rule change though. Those mirrors were illegal all along, the FIA just chose to let it slide for a weekend for no apparent reason.

Zynerji
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Zynerji » Sun May 13, 2018 5:16 am

No, the scrutineers deemed them legal by current rules. Period.

zokipirlo
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Re: 2018 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by zokipirlo » Sun May 13, 2018 7:17 am

Moose wrote:
Sun May 13, 2018 4:37 am
F1 Technical Regulations wrote:Other than the rear view mirrors (including their housings and mountings), each with a maximum area of 20000mm2 and 14000 mm2 when viewed from directly above or directly from the side respectively, no bodywork situated more than 330mm behind the front wheel centre line and more than 330mm forward of the rear wheel centre line, which is more than 600mm above the reference plane, may be more than 350mm from the car centre plane.
Those wings are neither mirror housings, nor mirror mounts, therefore they're illegal bodywork.
Top wing is a mounting point for mirror, according to Ferrari. It's connected to the mirror.