2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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netoperek
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by netoperek » Thu May 02, 2019 9:49 am

pipex wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 12:59 am
netoperek wrote:
Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:44 pm
...
All in all, it's at the very least unprofessional and I hope it's not intentional..
This situation must be a nightmare for Robert... I have no proof apart from what we know from the rumours, but I have the feeling that the team is actively favouring Russell and want Robert to fail. Maybe they only want to get the money from Orlen and then replace him when the money dries... In the autosport forum I remember seeing a picture of the chassis that when you compare them, looking at the one used by Robert shows a completely different carbon weave pattern in one part, showing that it must have been patched.

However, this also raises the question that Robert last year was their supposed "Development Driver" so he must have already knew what he was getting into...
Yeah, it sadly looks that way. I think if they had any chances to fight with anyone, they would support Robert as much as they could, as he is faster and more experienced. Right now, Williams is fighting for being within 107% more than competing, so it is better to give only more less reliable and competetive parts they have to Russel, as they can always say its not cars fault but its Roberts "limitations". It's better for them than admitting they are only capable of producing one car (regardless of how bad that car is). That works on audience that won't dig too much into it. That is as logical as it is pathetic. I can get that, but I can't see logic in sabotage, so I'll take it as pure incompetence without further proof. Russel is British and Toto protege though, so there might be some other incentives to make him look better. They already sandbagged Robert when they needed excuse to put Sirotkin in the car and made sure he won't be too much faster than Lance and Sergey on those rare ocasions he was given the car last year, so Robert must have been aware what they are capable of better than anyone. I think he was hoping that this time aroung it will be in Williams interest to support him as their race driver. Looks like he was too optimistic. Good thing he's not giving them a pat for it in the media :P

netoperek
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by netoperek » Thu May 02, 2019 9:54 am

marmer wrote:
Thu May 02, 2019 9:36 am
What if Robert has an absolutely iron clad contract with Williams that cannot be dropped as a driver easily on there side. Now they have some potential money coming in from mazepin they are doing everything possible to get him to quit on his side. Otherwise they are just unbelievably stupid Robert says to the press how it is so they have no hiding place and the fans and media will side with Robert not Williams.
That sounds as a viable option, though I don't think its Mazepin. He won't have enough licence points.
Problem is, there's plenty of people buying Williams narrative and thinking Robert is just making excuses for himself. He's as good a scapegoat as it gets with his arm and age, even though he has shown he's at least a good a driver he has been on his first F1 run.

bill shoe
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by bill shoe » Fri May 03, 2019 5:26 am

The car is outlier slow, the team is stressed, and races turn into surreal test sessions that involve no real contact or interaction with competitors from other teams. It's hard for any driver of any caliber to prove themselves in that situation, even against their teammate. Robert and George are both in no-win situations against each other there. George has to hope that Toto et al can at least understand the situation.

adrianjordan
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by adrianjordan » Fri May 03, 2019 11:04 am

bill shoe wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 5:26 am
The car is outlier slow, the team is stressed, and races turn into surreal test sessions that involve no real contact or interaction with competitors from other teams. It's hard for any driver of any caliber to prove themselves in that situation, even against their teammate. Robert and George are both in no-win situations against each other there. George has to hope that Toto et al can at least understand the situation.
If we can understand it as outside observers, then you can bet Toto and anyone who matters can as well.
In 2007 I had the chance to go to a meet-and-greet with an F1 test driver. I decided not to as I didn't think he'd even amount to much...he was the BMW Sauber test driver and his name was Sebastian Vettel...

netoperek
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by netoperek » Fri May 03, 2019 6:00 pm

Williams will receive compensation for drain cover incident (rumoured at around 500k pounds). Arif Rahimov declared that they will try their best to make it happen much sooner than it has been seen with similar incidents in the past.

bill shoe
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by bill shoe » Sat May 04, 2019 10:44 pm

adrianjordan wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 11:04 am

If we can understand it as outside observers, then you can bet Toto and anyone who matters can as well.
I worded that wrong. Toto certainly understands the problem, but he’s still left with no evidence about George’s ability compared to his teammate or other nearby teams.

Jolle
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Jolle » Fri May 10, 2019 9:34 pm

bill shoe wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 10:44 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 11:04 am

If we can understand it as outside observers, then you can bet Toto and anyone who matters can as well.
I worded that wrong. Toto certainly understands the problem, but he’s still left with no evidence about George’s ability compared to his teammate or other nearby teams.
well..... they have his sim data, probably his sim data from the Williams car or at least the half concerting the PU, they had him for a few tests in their car (passing on Ocon). The age that all you could tell how good a driver develops is the stopwatch are long gong.

netoperek
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by netoperek » Sat May 11, 2019 3:38 pm

Rumor has it, Williams is making ground for Latifi, screwing Robert as much as they can. to activate some sort of performance clause - kicking Robert out, keeping Orlen's money and cashing a lot more from Latifi. What's stopping them now is that Latifi doesn't have a superlicence yet and they fear they could lose in court against Robert and Orlen as they failed to give Robert and George equal treatment, which could potentially be proven as deliberate actions.

Manoah2u
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Manoah2u » Sat May 11, 2019 6:06 pm

Williams seems to be an absolute snakepit.

I'm pretty sure Robert is headbutting himself into a halo for thinking how he could have been so stupid to go for a Williams race seat over a Ferrari test seat.
He could have ended up @ Alfa Romeo next year alongside Raikkonen.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

tpeman
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by tpeman » Sat May 11, 2019 6:48 pm

Manoah2u wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 6:06 pm
Williams seems to be an absolute snakepit.

I'm pretty sure Robert is headbutting himself into a halo for thinking how he could have been so stupid to go for a Williams race seat over a Ferrari test seat.
He could have ended up @ Alfa Romeo next year alongside Raikkonen.
I don't think the Alfa Romeo seat would be an option. Ferrari are pretty supportive of their young talents and loyal to the veterans. So I think that if it isn't Giovinazzi, it would be Mick Schumacher in that seat.

Manoah2u
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Manoah2u » Sat May 11, 2019 11:28 pm

tpeman wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 6:48 pm
Manoah2u wrote:
Sat May 11, 2019 6:06 pm
Williams seems to be an absolute snakepit.

I'm pretty sure Robert is headbutting himself into a halo for thinking how he could have been so stupid to go for a Williams race seat over a Ferrari test seat.
He could have ended up @ Alfa Romeo next year alongside Raikkonen.
I don't think the Alfa Romeo seat would be an option. Ferrari are pretty supportive of their young talents and loyal to the veterans. So I think that if it isn't Giovinazzi, it would be Mick Schumacher in that seat.
Though that's very much true, there's some thing to say about that though.
Offcourse Alfa is now in a different situation than Sauber was before, so that'll probably do make some difference, but Giovanazzi WAS in F1 before, driving for sauber a race or 2? in that, he failed miserably so i was honestly quite surprised to see him return in F1, even though those failures were rookie mistakes but were quite costly.

I'd make of that that i'm not so sure about that 'loyal rookie programme'. Yes, LeClerc and the late Bianchi were from that same 'talent pool' but it must be said, they are some exceptional talents. I personally thought Bianchi to have more potential than LeClerc but that's unfortunately something we'll never get to know.

As for Mick, sure, very much possible, but will he be ready next year to step into F1? I'm not saying he wouldn't have the talent, but would he feel himself ready to take it up?

I think one of the bigger questions would be whether Robert is better than Giovanazzi. He definately used to be, but we're talking now. There's no way to see with Williams' current shenanigans.

And that's really the problem. Russell probably has the same benchmarking problem and might wonder whether it wouldn't have been wiser to take a reserve role at Force India for example.
After all, there's also Ocon who's sitting at the sideline hoping to come barging in.

One thing is sure though, Ocon did a good thing not to go to Williams, that would undoubtedly ruined his career.

As for Ferrari; i'm inclining to believe Haas is going to have a different lineup next year. Either Grosjean out, or Magnussen out. If thus Kubica went to a different role @ Ferrari instead of where he is now, he might have gotten a race seat at Haas. I personally also think that team fits Kubica.

Im still baffled about williams situation though. I honestly expected to see an updated package here in spain.
no wonders, but more or less a 'reboot' and a better built car, but things seem far, far from it.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

qatmix
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by qatmix » Thu May 16, 2019 2:22 pm

Looking at the track results this year, why would anyone want Kubica in a race seat next season? The guy was a brilliant driver, and I am sure he is still way better than me, but do you honestly think any F1 team with ambition would want him over an up and coming rookie? I spend every weekend hoping that things will turn around for him but in reality it doesn't look good.

Manoah2u
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Manoah2u » Thu May 16, 2019 11:08 pm

I think if Kubica would have been in an Alfa, Force India or such seat we would have been able to honestly judge him.
I'm very much afraid that he simply isn't capable to compete and that his handicap simply is keeping him from being able to beat his teammate. The embarassing situation at Williams at the moment only adds further questions to the situation.
I did expect him to be able to beat Russell more than has been the case. Then again, if what is mentioned above is true, something i unfortunately actually think sounds pretty possible and even plausible, then it's not an honest situation and we have no clue on Kubica's capabilities. Neither do we know just how good Russell actually might be.
Imagine that he in theory would be better than Hamilton or Verstappen even though he's missing experience.
There's no way of knowing, but it would also explain how easy he'd be able to beat Robert if he's really that good.
If that's true and Robert is able to keep up, just not beat him, then that makes Robert all the more impressive.

There's really no way of telling, and that is really damaging for both Kubica and Russell, as if the current situation wasn't bad enough.

Latifi won't come in so fast, he's missing superlicense points so the claims i've read that Robby gets ditched in his favour in a couple of races is tabloid nonsense. I don't believe either that Robert himself is willing to give up so easily even though it's a horrendous situation.

As for why a team would choose some rookie over Robert, well, there are some things at play there.
First of all, like every 'newcomer', you're going to have to bring a bag of money. If Robert's Orlen money brings in more than any rookie with a big question mark, then i'm not surprised a team goes for Kubica. Also, as mentioned before, they also need enough Super-license points. Then, there's actual quality. Robert is super experienced, is very technical, has ripened and is a very mature driver, and not to forget, not only was an undeniable fast and strong talent before his accident, but has proven in a variety of other racing classes after his accident that he's still
got that talent and being able to be competitive and winning despite having such a 'severe' handicap compared to other drivers - rookies - then that definitively plays a role.

Ferrari even offered him an important development role. They don't do that for nothing.

Unfortunately, Roberts long-term F1 career is in a questionable state, and unfortunately and very much undeservingly is all thanks to the poor situation that Williams is finding itself in right now.

Looking at it totally different though, the situation could also give Kubica some protection. Let's argue or theorize that in fact Robert is very much incapable of being competitive in Formula 1, due to the injuries sustained from his Rally accident. If Williams was competitive, and Russell would be driving like a champ making a name for himself, and Kubica turns out to have trouble getting through Q1 in a top-3 capable car (yes, total fantasy here) whilst Russell manages to get Poles (no pun intended) then that would be very damaging, embarassing and sad and very much terminal for his entire motorsport career and name. He'd feel or be forced to stop and be replaced without honor. Everybody would know. Instead, let's again keep that theory in mind that Robert is as 'bad' as in this scenario, but now, that same Robert is in the Williams that is in shambles as it is in real life right now. There would be no way knowing that he's actually that bad, only perhaps he himself knows this. In this case, due to the stressful situation,
he makes a statement to the press that he has no pleasure in driving like this in F1 and since there are no seats or 'worthwile' opportunities elsewhere in F1, he simply retires permanently now and is able to claim a successfull re-entry into F1 as he did just that. He'd still have a good amount of honor with him.

So to summarize, we really have no clue at all.
We're as clueless as Williams are.

On a sidenote thouhg,
Williams has been mentioning they've started looking into buying parts 'outside', if that helps them.
So they're slowly forced to move into doing what they arrogantly before were claiming they'd never do and boasting they are too special for to do. In other words, they have no choice, which again shows just how troublesome the situation still is.

I'm very much still having a huge question mark over whether they'll race in the final gp in 2019.
Hoping they will, let that be clear though.

Still eagerly awaiting a headline which says Claire steps down.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

bill shoe
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by bill shoe » Fri May 17, 2019 7:47 pm

I figure they will certainly be at the last race of 2019.

Challenge is that teams traditionally need to kick-off next year's car design immediately after Monaco. Does Williams know what the FW42 technical problems are? In a specific, actionable way that helps FW43 design? Seems unlikely when they've recently ditched the TD and are rebuilding many departments and manager positions. My vague sense as an outsider is that they're still grappling in the dark to identify their problems.

Manoah2u
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Re: 2019 Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

Post by Manoah2u » Sat May 18, 2019 12:42 am

There's no official TD, but i'm pretty sure Paddy Lowe has a good contract and they're still having to pay him.
Patrick Head is overseeing things and is performing and advisory role, but that's not the same as having a full blown full dedicated technical director. everybody seems or seemed to work past eachother and no head was facing the same way, and the way the team treats them supposedly is abysmal. they started late with a complete trashcan piece of junk of which they have no clue of what it's doing, which is why they have no idea why it did as bad as it did with Robert and it is a different car completely between Kubica and Russell. they had the same problem with the FW41.

so yeah, they have no idea, they are grappling in the dark so no, there is no plausibility that they know the technical problems. in this case, they can't wait till monaco for the FW43. but at the same time, they have nothing 'safe' to even concider designing the FW43, let alone have the money and the resources.

all the while they seemingly are trying to get rid inappropriately of Robert - if thats true at all offcourse - the only guy over there which is technically sound and can give a experienced driver's point of view and has been there for a while now. The other driver is a total rookie, and his replacement would be a slow useless Russian that only brings money which never has been proven to be a fix or life saver for them anyway. They'd lose all that potential just like they lost a load of experience with Massa.

By the looks of it, they are constantly losing the right people, experienced, knowledgeable people, and keep repeating the same mistakes with hire-drivers which they try to pickpocket their money off as quite frankly that's how i see how Williams is (ab)using 'wealthy' driver's wallets to no performance avail but only for the leadership's
wealth. the same leadership that is visionless, out of touch with reality, stubborn and arrogant riding a 'historical' wave that has long gone. A team that states they changed their livery to open a new fresh chapter that's off to a lousy start and at that, a livery proposed by Haas, a team that does exactly which Williams states they'd loathe to become,
buying parts from suppliers and constructing more or less a lego-car and having a livery that is a cheap rip-off from a classic JPS livery from a wannabe energy drink company which stole it's uninspiring logo from a company based in the same village. They're THAT visionless and sunken that low.

Completely out of touch. which is quite frankly what you're seeing in their results.
As in the words of Alonso : 'GP2 car! GP2 car!'
And quite frankly, i think GP2/F2 cars would obliterate the FW42.

I honestly thought i was seeing some actual progress and some positive news coming from them a few months ago not long after the initial debacle but it seemed to already faded away.
The complete silence around all this trouble is actually what troubles me the most.

I really want to see so much better and such better reports, but where are they?
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.