2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:31 pm

Wouter wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:55 pm
The engine in France is a decent step in allowing more chassis performance.
Can you explain that? What do you mean by " allowing more chassis performance"? How?
Packaging allowing better aero, better weight distribution, better COG, tighter body work.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Wouter
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Wouter » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:47 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:31 pm
Wouter wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:55 pm
The engine in France is a decent step in allowing more chassis performance.
Can you explain that? What do you mean by " allowing more chassis performance"? How?
Packaging allowing better aero, better weight distribution, better COG, tighter body work.
Oké, thanks. But for this, the engine must have a different size. How do you know that's the case?
This is not a criticism, but I am just curious.

maguetox
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by maguetox » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:48 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:31 pm
Wouter wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:55 pm
The engine in France is a decent step in allowing more chassis performance.
Can you explain that? What do you mean by " allowing more chassis performance"? How?
Packaging allowing better aero, better weight distribution, better COG, tighter body work.
The famous free performance gains for having a better PU packing. A very difficult accomplishment for the non-training eye.

Maplesoup
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Joined: Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:25 pm

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Maplesoup » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:28 pm

maguetox wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:48 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:31 pm
Wouter wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 pm


Can you explain that? What do you mean by " allowing more chassis performance"? How?
Packaging allowing better aero, better weight distribution, better COG, tighter body work.
The famous free performance gains for having a better PU packing. A very difficult accomplishment for the non-training eye.
Anyone got a source to confirm that they've redone the packaging. This could just be a HP increase nothing more.

Last I heard they said they won't be doing it until next season.

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:48 pm

maguetox wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:48 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:31 pm
Wouter wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:58 pm


Can you explain that? What do you mean by " allowing more chassis performance"? How?
Packaging allowing better aero, better weight distribution, better COG, tighter body work.
The famous free performance gains for having a better PU packing. A very difficult accomplishment for the non-training eye.
I understand, and if so it is a big deal, if Honda partly funds this it also shows their commitment to winning.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

godlameroso
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Location: Miami FL

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:52 pm

Maplesoup wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:28 pm
maguetox wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:48 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:31 pm


Packaging allowing better aero, better weight distribution, better COG, tighter body work.
The famous free performance gains for having a better PU packing. A very difficult accomplishment for the non-training eye.
Anyone got a source to confirm that they've redone the packaging. This could just be a HP increase nothing more.

Last I heard they said they won't be doing it until next season.
They say they can't change the chassis, and this is true, however the engine footprint can change, or be rearranged as engineering developments come along. Just changing the routing of hoses, or redesigning some brackets in key areas can free up cm's. If reliability and design has reached a point where durability is no longer a concern the envelope can be pushed as far as pumps, windage losses, heat exchangers. A lot of small changes from better engineering fundamentally sound concepts amount to big gains.

A few cm in aerodynamically critical locations can lead to gains, but again this real estate is hard to come by and have big lead times.

Packaging is like mixing speed chess and tetris. To improve the overall package there's give and take involved, adding weight in one area can lead to less overall weight, and taking out weight in one area can end up causing you to add more weight because a critcal area lacks reinforcement(ahme diffuser).
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

loner
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by loner » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:08 pm

Wouter wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:27 am
Alexf1 wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:14 am
Interesting. Do you have a link?
Thank you @Hasika.

@Alex, Page 3 and 4.
https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... _split_13/
thnx
some ballsy words assuming he means the Mercs
seems big week coming ahead for RBR
if the current weaknesses we have are improved. If the power and aerodynamic stability of the car can be improved a little further, it will be able to catch up with and even overtake the rival as a total package.
also will b interesting to see how Ferrari respond since they rushed their first upgrade in Spain after Honda Baku upgrade.
para bellum.

Marti_EF3
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Marti_EF3 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:06 pm

I heard some time ago that Honda and Hitachi formed an alliance to work and produce electrical motors for the automotive industry. Anyone knows if they are involved too on the F1 project?? Because Hitachi is a hell of a brand too :roll:

Maplesoup
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Maplesoup » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:27 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:52 pm
Maplesoup wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:28 pm
maguetox wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:48 pm


The famous free performance gains for having a better PU packing. A very difficult accomplishment for the non-training eye.
Anyone got a source to confirm that they've redone the packaging. This could just be a HP increase nothing more.

Last I heard they said they won't be doing it until next season.
They say they can't change the chassis, and this is true, however the engine footprint can change, or be rearranged as engineering developments come along. Just changing the routing of hoses, or redesigning some brackets in key areas can free up cm's. If reliability and design has reached a point where durability is no longer a concern the envelope can be pushed as far as pumps, windage losses, heat exchangers. A lot of small changes from better engineering fundamentally sound concepts amount to big gains.

A few cm in aerodynamically critical locations can lead to gains, but again this real estate is hard to come by and have big lead times.

Packaging is like mixing speed chess and tetris. To improve the overall package there's give and take involved, adding weight in one area can lead to less overall weight, and taking out weight in one area can end up causing you to add more weight because a critcal area lacks reinforcement(ahme diffuser).
Oh I get all that. I understand how much of a big deal packaging of the engine is. But that isn't the question I'm asking.

Is there any source material to say this is what they have coming in spec 3 or are you talking bull.

ispano6
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Location: my armchair

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by ispano6 » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:29 pm

Maplesoup wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:27 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:52 pm
Maplesoup wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:28 pm


Anyone got a source to confirm that they've redone the packaging. This could just be a HP increase nothing more.

Last I heard they said they won't be doing it until next season.
They say they can't change the chassis, and this is true, however the engine footprint can change, or be rearranged as engineering developments come along. Just changing the routing of hoses, or redesigning some brackets in key areas can free up cm's. If reliability and design has reached a point where durability is no longer a concern the envelope can be pushed as far as pumps, windage losses, heat exchangers. A lot of small changes from better engineering fundamentally sound concepts amount to big gains.

A few cm in aerodynamically critical locations can lead to gains, but again this real estate is hard to come by and have big lead times.

Packaging is like mixing speed chess and tetris. To improve the overall package there's give and take involved, adding weight in one area can lead to less overall weight, and taking out weight in one area can end up causing you to add more weight because a critcal area lacks reinforcement(ahme diffuser).
Oh I get all that. I understand how much of a big deal packaging of the engine is. But that isn't the question I'm asking.

Is there any source material to say this is what they have coming in spec 3 or are you talking bull.
https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3866 ... ew-engine/
Marko said a few weeks ago that the team would be receiving a 20 bhp injection of pace via new power units, but has now backtracked.

"The 20 horsepower that is now being mentioned is not correct, it is less than that. We can, however, push the engine longer without compromising reliability,” the Austrian told Auto Bild.

"The next upgrade is planned for mid-year,” he added.

Toyoharu Tanabe has provided context to the decision to provide the new engines before the Azerbaijan GP.

"This weekend, we will introduce the Spec 2 version of our internal combustion engine (ICE) across all four cars right from the start of the weekend,” the Honda technical director told reporters in Baku.

"One of the reasons for bringing it to this race is that we found that Kvyat’s PU problem in China was down to a quality control issue.

"The main benefits of Spec 2 are improved durability and life and better reliability. It also offers a slight improvement in performance."
I bolded mid-year as he did not say mid-season. Mid-year is around June-July time frame.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/4087 ... for-power/
Honda are testing "day and night" in order to improve its Formula 1 power unit, according to Red Bull motorsport advisor Dr Helmut Marko. Although Red Bull will take a new engine in next weekend's French Grand Prix, Marko says a bigger upgrade is planned for the Italian GP.
So now we have a better idea of what the update will be. The way I understand Honda's information is that they might introduce the turbo update in Spec 3 but not run it at max-power. Might they allow it to be used in Q3 and in small spurts during races until Monza when hopefully reliability for the new turbo is understood and sustained max power can be unleashed. The hardware may be introduced so that it can actually be evaluated in real world conditions but it probably can't be run in a sustained manner. There is no penalty to bring the engine in France, Austria, UK, or Germany so the sooner the better. But whatever the change, the engine has to be mated to the chassis.

https://en.hondaracingf1.com/races/2019 ... -prix.html
Returning to this state-of-the-art track we arrive better prepared than last year, having never run on the circuit before. Keep your eyes on the Mistral straight for overtaking opportunities, where power unit’s get a chance to showcase their abilities.

Maplesoup
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Maplesoup » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:44 am

ispano6 wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:29 pm

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/3866 ... ew-engine/
Marko said a few weeks ago that the team would be receiving a 20 bhp injection of pace via new power units, but has now backtracked.

"The 20 horsepower that is now being mentioned is not correct, it is less than that. We can, however, push the engine longer without compromising reliability,” the Austrian told Auto Bild.

"The next upgrade is planned for mid-year,” he added.

Toyoharu Tanabe has provided context to the decision to provide the new engines before the Azerbaijan GP.

"This weekend, we will introduce the Spec 2 version of our internal combustion engine (ICE) across all four cars right from the start of the weekend,” the Honda technical director told reporters in Baku.

"One of the reasons for bringing it to this race is that we found that Kvyat’s PU problem in China was down to a quality control issue.

"The main benefits of Spec 2 are improved durability and life and better reliability. It also offers a slight improvement in performance."
I bolded mid-year as he did not say mid-season. Mid-year is around June-July time frame.

https://www.gpfans.com/en/articles/4087 ... for-power/
Honda are testing "day and night" in order to improve its Formula 1 power unit, according to Red Bull motorsport advisor Dr Helmut Marko. Although Red Bull will take a new engine in next weekend's French Grand Prix, Marko says a bigger upgrade is planned for the Italian GP.
So now we have a better idea of what the update will be. The way I understand Honda's information is that they might introduce the turbo update in Spec 3 but not run it at max-power. Might they allow it to be used in Q3 and in small spurts during races until Monza when hopefully reliability for the new turbo is understood and sustained max power can be unleashed. The hardware may be introduced so that it can actually be evaluated in real world conditions but it probably can't be run in a sustained manner. There is no penalty to bring the engine in France, Austria, UK, or Germany so the sooner the better. But whatever the change, the engine has to be mated to the chassis.

https://en.hondaracingf1.com/races/2019 ... -prix.html
Returning to this state-of-the-art track we arrive better prepared than last year, having never run on the circuit before. Keep your eyes on the Mistral straight for overtaking opportunities, where power unit’s get a chance to showcase their abilities.
So again as i said there is no evidence of new packaging, only a power upgrade that could come from any part of the power unit.

We need to stop stating speculation as fact, if its your opinion or a theory you have then fantastic but state it as such rather than trying to convince people that what you are saying is true.

Alexf1
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Alexf1 » Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:33 am

Reading the Japanese article linked earlier (thanks for that) RB is trying to get aero updates ready in time for French GP.
https://sportiva.shueisha.co.jp/clm/mot ... _split_13/

ME4ME
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by ME4ME » Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:44 pm

Looking forward to see what upgrades get released and how it'll help performance. While respectable, I honestly think the performance this season so far has been a bit disappointing. Especially from the chassis/aero side. Red Bull Honda must do better.

seense
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by seense » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:06 pm

I agree. Especially After the pre-season BS by Marko.

shingles
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by shingles » Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:09 pm

It’s funny how people’s expectation changes on the fly. Even though RBH has not finished below 5th place and have two podiums, in a first year partnership... now it’s not good enough.

Of course we all want more... but some perspective is probably good in life.