2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Jolle
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Jolle » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:11 pm

KelsO wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:55 pm
kasio wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:48 am
cmon! rearing another driver twice is not political. it is his own responsibility. he was not good enough and thats the only reason there was considerations to replace him.
This is not politics in the usual sense of the word, in F1 it is full of politics, everyone knows about it. The fact that Kvyat was given so many chances only confirms my theory. Racers who do not live up to their expectations leave Rudbull. RedBull just knew what Kvyat was worth and knew that his expulsion from RudBull was unfounded. I understand their decision, Max is a great racer and he had great potential, it would be foolish to miss it, but I don’t like how it was implemented. It's not about Max, it's about how sometimes Red Bull makes decisions.
 It has just been stated by all the main persons that Pierre will finish the season, but after that he was replaced by Albon. This decision is absolutely correct, but why so much lies, they could simply remain silent.
You do know that Kvyat was complete dropped by RedBull after 2017 to work for Ferrari in 2018?

diffuser
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by diffuser » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:29 pm

Jolle wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:11 pm
KelsO wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 5:55 pm
kasio wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:48 am
cmon! rearing another driver twice is not political. it is his own responsibility. he was not good enough and thats the only reason there was considerations to replace him.
This is not politics in the usual sense of the word, in F1 it is full of politics, everyone knows about it. The fact that Kvyat was given so many chances only confirms my theory. Racers who do not live up to their expectations leave Rudbull. RedBull just knew what Kvyat was worth and knew that his expulsion from RudBull was unfounded. I understand their decision, Max is a great racer and he had great potential, it would be foolish to miss it, but I don’t like how it was implemented. It's not about Max, it's about how sometimes Red Bull makes decisions.
 It has just been stated by all the main persons that Pierre will finish the season, but after that he was replaced by Albon. This decision is absolutely correct, but why so much lies, they could simply remain silent.
You do know that Kvyat was complete dropped by RedBull after 2017 to work for Ferrari in 2018?
Yeah and by their own admission Ricciardo leaving was a surprise. So if Ricciardo doesn't leave we don't see Kvyat.

drunkf1fan
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by drunkf1fan » Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:18 am

Gasly was announced as moving up to RBR once Ricciardo announced he was leaving, kvyat was signed to replace him. At the time the second driver was unnamed, Hartley was, well in contention but really they were looking for a replacement because he was crap. Albon signed for FE this season because he wasn't at the time directly in contention for a seat. If Ricciardo didn't leave, then most likely we wouldn't have seen Albon in F1 this year, not Kvyat. Kvyat was the first guy they turned to once they knew they needed another driver after a year of good reports from his work with Ferrari and getting back into his driving groove.

As for why they told Gasly he had a seat, sometimes drivers under pressure need a kick in the butt to perform and sometimes they need some confidence that their seat isn't under pressure, sometimes both.

IE the team tell him he must improve and soon or he won't be around in 2020, but that his seat is safe. If they tell him to improve but he's only got 2 races left then he thinks he's basically got to win, tries to win everything in a last ditch attempt at T1 (think Kvyat, Russia 2016) and actually does worse. If he thinks I have to be more aggressive, but I have 11 races left, he still needs to be more aggressive throughout a race but he's less likely to try to divebomb everyone in the first corner.

There is a fine line between offering confidence and telling a driver if he keeps performing like he is, he's done. RBR did nothing wrong, to tell him he had 2 races to save his career would have been even more pressure making it even harder to perform, to not tell him he needs to improve at all is to make him think he's doing enough to keep his seat. Fact is you don't ultimately know which way any given driver will react to any type of encouragement. Some people need a boot in the behind to get to work, some people need a gentle nudge. Imo they tried the gentle, we won't replace him, but we expect improvement through the early part of the season and then around Silverstone they added a he needs to take a drastic step or we'll have to consider our options, then he put in his first and only decent performance and they pushed to a his seat is safe but in context of that Silverstone performance. He then performed exactly as he had before in Germany and Hungary giving them very little choice.

dxpetrov
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by dxpetrov » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:49 am

loner wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:28 pm
HondaPOD wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:25 am
Honda facing "very complicated" Red Bull penalty call
The question is when you will change the PU keeping in mind these 3 points:
  • you want to do well in Belgium : almost Max home grand prix
  • you can win Singapore
  • you must do very well at Suzuka
.

For my point of view, RBR should change Albon PU in Spa, Max in Monza, use the old PU for Singapore and Suchi and from then using the 4th PU for the remaining GPs of the season. I believe they can do it and finish the year with only 4 PUs.
your link is dead this is the right link and thnx ofcourse.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14543 ... 1549226475
this is very interesting...
Tanabe added: "We have two types of plan, long-term and short-term.

"After the race we review the situation, the condition of the PU, maybe two or three races is the short-term. "And the long-term means until the end of the season."

"It is very complicated."
I say, it's not up to Honda to decide.
Finish the engines, put them on a shelf and let the adults from RBR strategize and prioritize as per the requirements of the Championship / car form / 2020 developments / etc.

garygph
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by garygph » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:36 am

dxpetrov wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:49 am
loner wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:28 pm
HondaPOD wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:25 am
Honda facing "very complicated" Red Bull penalty call
The question is when you will change the PU keeping in mind these 3 points:
  • you want to do well in Belgium : almost Max home grand prix
  • you can win Singapore
  • you must do very well at Suzuka
.

For my point of view, RBR should change Albon PU in Spa, Max in Monza, use the old PU for Singapore and Suchi and from then using the 4th PU for the remaining GPs of the season. I believe they can do it and finish the year with only 4 PUs.
your link is dead this is the right link and thnx ofcourse.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14543 ... 1549226475
this is very interesting...
Tanabe added: "We have two types of plan, long-term and short-term.

"After the race we review the situation, the condition of the PU, maybe two or three races is the short-term. "And the long-term means until the end of the season."

"It is very complicated."
I say, it's not up to Honda to decide.
Finish the engines, put them on a shelf and let the adults from RBR strategize and prioritize as per the requirements of the Championship / car form / 2020 developments / etc.
Maybe when Tanabe says "we" he is including RBR as it is a decision that involves both of them? I do not believe Honda dictate to RBR , it would be a team ( Honda/RBR) decision.

etusch
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Location: Turkey

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by etusch » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:27 pm

dxpetrov wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:49 am
loner wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:28 pm
HondaPOD wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:25 am
Honda facing "very complicated" Red Bull penalty call
The question is when you will change the PU keeping in mind these 3 points:
  • you want to do well in Belgium : almost Max home grand prix
  • you can win Singapore
  • you must do very well at Suzuka
.

For my point of view, RBR should change Albon PU in Spa, Max in Monza, use the old PU for Singapore and Suchi and from then using the 4th PU for the remaining GPs of the season. I believe they can do it and finish the year with only 4 PUs.
your link is dead this is the right link and thnx ofcourse.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14543 ... 1549226475
this is very interesting...
Tanabe added: "We have two types of plan, long-term and short-term.

"After the race we review the situation, the condition of the PU, maybe two or three races is the short-term. "And the long-term means until the end of the season."

"It is very complicated."
I say, it's not up to Honda to decide.
Finish the engines, put them on a shelf and let the adults from RBR strategize and prioritize as per the requirements of the Championship / car form / 2020 developments / etc.
I've read that they will decide together but Marko was saying that they want all updates as soon as it's ready.
So taking new engine with Toro Rosso's and at least one (expect both ) Redbull is good.

KelsO
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Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 9:58 pm

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by KelsO » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:47 pm

Jolle wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:11 pm


You do know that Kvyat was complete dropped by RedBull after 2017 to work for Ferrari in 2018?
Yes of course. They said that he broke psychologically. He spent the first season with Riccardo, a very strong pilot, and looked decent and had no psychological problems, despite the fact that Marco was tough on him. But in 2016, these problems did not appear on their own, but were caused by the actions of Red Bull. At that time (2017) he really needed to get out of there to calm down.
  I just expressed my opinion on this issue. I am not obsessed with blaming Red Bull, and even less so with Max, it makes no difference to me, it's just a look at the events that happened.

Wouter
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Wouter » Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:57 pm

Japanese interview with Yamamoto, some quotes from page 1 translated with google translate:

Can you tell us what you think after the first half of the game?
Masafumi Yamamoto Managing Director (Yamamoto MD): Looking back on the first half of the game, I think the French GP was a turning point.

──What is it?
Yamamoto MD: At the start over there, Verstappen would probably be out for a moment alongside Charles Leclerc (Ferrari). I think you remember. However, immediately after that, it was torn lightly.

Actually, Honda's power unit was overheated at that time. Just for Max. I can say that because it is now. Why is that? I analyzed why this happened after the race and went to Austria.

──That was what happened.
Yamamoto MD: Originally all four units had signs of heat.

──At the previous round of the 7th Canadian Grand Prix, you had power loss symptoms.
Yamamoto MD: That's right. And in France, only Max has lost a lot of power at the start. Exactly the power loss symptom remains in the data, and why does this happen immediately after the start of the first lap. So in Austria, we took all possible measures against overheating.

Running four units has an advantage at this time, and the laboratory has verified a huge amount of data from four units. Austria was very hot, but it was set to the limit so that it could demonstrate its original performance in such an environment. That was directly linked to the victory of Austria.

At the same time, I learned that it was possible to draw performance from our power unit so far, and I was able to do a good race with England, Germany and Hungary. About the UK after the first victory, I was talking to Tanabe (Toyoharu / Honda F1 Technical Director), saying, “It ’s a power circuit, so it ’s a podium even if it works.” In fact, it was impossible to win, but it could have been second if he hadn't even hit Sebastian Vettel (Ferrari). Thanks to such a race, we felt a good response.
https://www.as-web.jp/f1/512082?all

ispano6
96
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 10:56 pm

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by ispano6 » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:03 pm

dxpetrov wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:49 am
loner wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:28 pm
HondaPOD wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:25 am
Honda facing "very complicated" Red Bull penalty call
The question is when you will change the PU keeping in mind these 3 points:
  • you want to do well in Belgium : almost Max home grand prix
  • you can win Singapore
  • you must do very well at Suzuka
.

For my point of view, RBR should change Albon PU in Spa, Max in Monza, use the old PU for Singapore and Suchi and from then using the 4th PU for the remaining GPs of the season. I believe they can do it and finish the year with only 4 PUs.
your link is dead this is the right link and thnx ofcourse.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14543 ... 1549226475
this is very interesting...
Tanabe added: "We have two types of plan, long-term and short-term.

"After the race we review the situation, the condition of the PU, maybe two or three races is the short-term. "And the long-term means until the end of the season."

"It is very complicated."
I say, it's not up to Honda to decide.
Finish the engines, put them on a shelf and let the adults from RBR strategize and prioritize as per the requirements of the Championship / car form / 2020 developments / etc.
That's already how it's done.
They can choose to use it when they get it. Ofcourse, provided the lads at Honda have it ready. And even once it's in the car after its first shakedown run it will need to be calibrated and remapped over several real simulation runs using various fuel variations with ExxonMobil personnel. It is not like Red Bull team simply is given an engine and is told to deal with it. This is the benefit of the works team support. The Honda boys back in Sakura have shown to be able to provide updated mappings even during qualifying. Everything is in synergy right now and according to plan.

Datco
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Datco » Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:57 pm

ispano6 wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:03 pm
dxpetrov wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:49 am
loner wrote:
Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:28 pm

your link is dead this is the right link and thnx ofcourse.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14543 ... 1549226475
this is very interesting...
I say, it's not up to Honda to decide.
Finish the engines, put them on a shelf and let the adults from RBR strategize and prioritize as per the requirements of the Championship / car form / 2020 developments / etc.
That's already how it's done.
They can choose to use it when they get it. Ofcourse, provided the lads at Honda have it ready. And even once it's in the car after its first shakedown run it will need to be calibrated and remapped over several real simulation runs using various fuel variations with ExxonMobil personnel. It is not like Red Bull team simply is given an engine and is told to deal with it. This is the benefit of the works team support. The Honda boys back in Sakura have shown to be able to provide updated mappings even during qualifying. Everything is in synergy right now and according to plan.
This is a great position for RBR to be in with the PU updates at perhaps an overwhelming rate. Something that they may not be accustomed to. In the past they had very few updates and practically begging for them. In 2017 I think they just had a software update that was later dailed back after reliability issues.

Juzh
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Juzh » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:41 am

KelsO wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:47 pm
Yes of course. They said that he broke psychologically. He spent the first season with Riccardo, a very strong pilot, and looked decent and had no psychological problems, despite the fact that Marco was tough on him. But in 2016, these problems did not appear on their own, but were caused by the actions of Red Bull.
Kvyat was not a "strong pilot" in 2015 at all. He was average at best, being consistently and significatnly outpaced by ricciardo on equal terms. It wasn't to the extent verstappen demolised gasly this year but probably somewhere in the middle, which is why he lasted more than a year in RBR. This is ricciardo we're talking about, who is known to be inherenetly slower than verstappen.

Even his china 2016 performance where he got 3rd place after first lap incident wasn't anything special when you really look at it. His race pace was pretty bad and vettel was able to get second off him at later stages of the race. Meanwhile ricciardo was catching both of them with a damaged car, showing how much underlying pace RB had at that race that was simply wasted in kvyat's hands. This happened at pretty much every race in 2015-2016 when they were teammates.

ispano6
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by ispano6 » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:30 pm

Juzh wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:41 am
KelsO wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:47 pm
Yes of course. They said that he broke psychologically. He spent the first season with Riccardo, a very strong pilot, and looked decent and had no psychological problems, despite the fact that Marco was tough on him. But in 2016, these problems did not appear on their own, but were caused by the actions of Red Bull.
Kvyat was not a "strong pilot" in 2015 at all. He was average at best, being consistently and significatnly outpaced by ricciardo on equal terms. It wasn't to the extent verstappen demolised gasly this year but probably somewhere in the middle, which is why he lasted more than a year in RBR. This is ricciardo we're talking about, who is known to be inherenetly slower than verstappen.

Even his china 2016 performance where he got 3rd place after first lap incident wasn't anything special when you really look at it. His race pace was pretty bad and vettel was able to get second off him at later stages of the race. Meanwhile ricciardo was catching both of them with a damaged car, showing how much underlying pace RB had at that race that was simply wasted in kvyat's hands. This happened at pretty much every race in 2015-2016 when they were teammates.
Ricciardo is 5 years older than Kvyat and was far more experienced. Kvyat was young and too raw to match an in form Ricciardo, but now has another good barometer in Gasly to be compared against. It's also important for the two to improve STR and make ground on McLaren for 2020. Both Albon and Gasly can provide feedback to STR as to what makes RB15 faster and may even spawn a derivative of this year's B spec chassis.

Manoah2u
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Manoah2u » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:39 pm

I rather doubt Gasly will be present in a RB car in 2020.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:42 pm

There is a long running misconception that teams need more than a race to extract the maximum from a new engine. This is not true, there are things that can only be learned on track. But this doesn't mean that the engine gains power from one race to the next. The power is one thing, settings is another, and engine settings can and do improve at different timing to hardware updates, as settings are also heavily dependent on fuel.

Fuel updates aren't always available with new engine spec. And new fuel spec requires new settings.
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NL_Fer
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by NL_Fer » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:47 pm

Suggestions have been made about Redbull selling Torro Rosso to Honda at some point. But what does Honda need with a small Italian based team, which uses Redbull’s technology? Wouldn’t the chance be bigger, that Redbull sells Redbull Racing to Honda, so that Honda becomes a top 3 manufacturer, capable of winning championships. Keeping STR for the new talents?