2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Manoah2u
61
Joined: 24 Feb 2013, 14:07

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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the point Jos makes is valid. They'll HAVE to concider other teams. As great as it is to be with RBR and find an occasional win during the season, Max is held back if he doesn't have a WDC competitive car.

Right now, that means there are only two choices: Mercedes or Ferrari. Would Mercedes go for Verstappen alongside Hamilton? I'd love to see that. It would also mean he more or less goes driving for the 'same' team his father drove for (Tyrrell). The other option, Ferrari, would then be alongside LeClerc. Which would be interesting too but i believe Binotto has downplayed possibilities for that to happen (even though when it comes down to it, it would happen still).

Still the big problem is this: even if RBR comes popping up in 2020 in the fight with 'self propelled' battles, so an honest dogfight, or atleast much better than now, the question is going to be what will happen in 2021.
Yes that can go for all of the 3 big teams, but let's concider the scenario of RBR being in 2020 where they are right now in 2019.

What if Verstappen decides to leave RBR and go for Mercedes?
Then we find out in 2021 that RBR did a better job and now Albon is winning, with Kvyat.
And Ferrari is right behind them and Mercedes finds itself batteling with Renault and Mclaren.
OR, Verstappen goes to Ferrari and the same happens.
But that same can go with RBR.

Nobody can look into the future but it's arguable that Mercedes and Ferrari both have bigger chances
of being successfull in 2021 and beyond than RBR has with Honda, due to the nature of the teams.
Then again - 2021 might open possibilities for a 2009 scenario with some gimmick, and RBR would be
very much a team to find something.

All it takes is just a few wins though, and F1, RBR and Max are happy.
It is that simple, really. And that is still very much possible with RBR, so i DONT think they'll split at all.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

NL_Fer
82
Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Verstappen is already driving for his dads team, Stewart F1. Where Jos pipped Magnussens dad in ‘98.

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Big Tea
99
Joined: 24 Dec 2017, 20:57

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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I would love to see Max at Mercedes with Hamilton, bet being real, would Mercedes want Max and Lewis in that team the way things look to be shaping up?
It would be good for us, but they would take points from each other and with Ferrari and RBR looking to close the gap they would not have the luxury of 'let them race' as they (said) they did with Nico and Lewis.

The best option would probably be for him to stay where he is until the fog of war abates, so not tie himself in too long.

(did Jos not also test the Honda ?)
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

NL_Fer
82
Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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It would turn Toto either gray or bald within one season.

Capharol
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Joined: 04 Nov 2018, 17:06
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Big Tea wrote:
05 Oct 2019, 12:31
I would love to see Max at Mercedes with Hamilton, bet being real, would Mercedes want Max and Lewis in that team the way things look to be shaping up?
It would be good for us, but they would take points from each other and with Ferrari and RBR looking to close the gap they would not have the luxury of 'let them race' as they (said) they did with Nico and Lewis.

The best option would probably be for him to stay where he is until the fog of war abates, so not tie himself in too long.

(did Jos not also test the Honda ?)
you would get Hamilton vs Rosberg all over again...
and yes Jos tested a Honda car back in the days, but Honda pulled out .....

Capharol
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Joined: 04 Nov 2018, 17:06
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Drivers warned bosses ‘don’t turn F1 into American wrestling’ – Verstappen

“Us drivers had a meeting with the Formula 1 owners,” Verstappen told his official website. “We spoke a lot about what we want as drivers.

“Nothing has been decided but we don’t want something like American wrestling were everything is artificial and fake. We made clear that is not what we want.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/05/dri ... erstappen/

trinidefender
317
Joined: 19 Apr 2013, 20:37

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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The way I see it is that at least for the short to mid term future, neither Mercedes nor Ferrari will sign Verstappen and the headache that comes with two No.1 drivers being in the same team. They must know this. Wouldn't it be more likely that Jos and Max are doing this to maybe try to renegotiate his contract to be on better terms, put redbull under some pressure to up the ante financially to Max.

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Wouter
106
Joined: 16 Dec 2017, 13:02

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Capharol wrote:
05 Oct 2019, 23:49
Drivers warned bosses ‘don’t turn F1 into American wrestling’ – Verstappen

“Us drivers had a meeting with the Formula 1 owners,” Verstappen told his official website. “We spoke a lot about what we want as drivers.

“Nothing has been decided but we don’t want something like American wrestling were everything is artificial and fake. We made clear that is not what we want.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/10/05/dri ... erstappen/

Here you can read the whole interview with Max:

https://www.verstappen.nl/en/article/3848/
The Power of Dreams!

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diffuser
207
Joined: 07 Sep 2012, 13:55
Location: Montreal

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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trinidefender wrote:
06 Oct 2019, 07:37
The way I see it is that at least for the short to mid term future, neither Mercedes nor Ferrari will sign Verstappen and the headache that comes with two No.1 drivers being in the same team. They must know this. Wouldn't it be more likely that Jos and Max are doing this to maybe try to renegotiate his contract to be on better terms, put redbull under some pressure to up the ante financially to Max.
Yeah RBR did pay to keep Vettel there until he was ready to leave and they had found a suitable replacement.

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ispano6
143
Joined: 09 Mar 2017, 23:56
Location: my playseat

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Big Tea wrote:
05 Oct 2019, 12:31
I would love to see Max at Mercedes with Hamilton, bet being real, would Mercedes want Max and Lewis in that team the way things look to be shaping up?
It would be good for us, but they would take points from each other and with Ferrari and RBR looking to close the gap they would not have the luxury of 'let them race' as they (said) they did with Nico and Lewis.

The best option would probably be for him to stay where he is until the fog of war abates, so not tie himself in too long.

(did Jos not also test the Honda ?)
For those of who might not know Jos, listen to the Beyond the Grid podcast. Was great to listen to a proud dad talk about his son and Honda.

https://youtu.be/MFUy7Nn8o2A


KelsO
-2
Joined: 07 Mar 2019, 22:58

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Well, as I said, the Ferrari advantage makes about 20-25 hp. in qualification (10 per race), not 40kW.
Here's a pretty interesting article.

https://www.f1analisitecnica.com/2019/1 ... sh_ce=5837
Technical analysis SF90: Reconstruction

During the last month so many voices have chased each other in the paddock. Despite the absence of tangible evidence on the alleged irregularity, the goodness of the work of the Maranello technicians was strongly questioned. The accusation, bragged against by his opponents, spoke of an escamotage capable of circumventing the technical regulation, providing the SF90 with an extra power of 40 kilowatts, in spite of the strict FIA controls. Going through the rules that act on the hybrid part, we note that the Formula One regulation does not impose limits on energy recovery through MGU-H. This component, mounted on the turbine impeller and compressor shaft, generates current.
It does this by turning excess kinetic energy from the turbine into electricity. Therefore, a single-seater capable of producing extra power with the MGU-H, capable of sending it directly to the MGU-K without going through the battery, does not break the rules. On this basis probably the accusation of the last few weeks, confirmed by the statements of Helmut Marko first and Wolff then. Furthermore, according to sources of Red Bull councilor, Renault was the first to knock on the door of the FIA, asking for explanations in this regard. The international federation, however, despite repeated complaints coming from multiple fronts, has nevertheless not pronounced.

Technical analysis SF90: Concrete facts

We have to analyze the tangible facts, using the data coming directly from the track. Only then can we get an idea of ​​the situation, trying to understand how the Ferrari SF90 power unit works. The Maranello team's engine is certainly a strong point of the 2019 project. Binotto, in his latest statements (click here), has wisely tried to shift the attention elsewhere, placing the exclamation point on the aerodynamics of the Italian car. Undoubtedly, the Rossa low drag philosophy puts the accent on the performance of the Italian engine, thanks to the low aerodynamic penetration coefficient it has. That said, in the recent races of the 2019 championship, FUnoAT noted how the technicians of the historic team worked on a different engine supply.
We specify. In general, wherever we are in the world, the optimal use of the power unit makes the difference. Therefore, guaranteeing the right power by balancing it between straights, power recovery, acceleration and overtaking during the race, is crucial to produce a good performance. Precisely for this reason, as we can see in the image below, the Cavallino technicians have made some changes to the third Power Unit specification.
Image
The work carried out, purely concerning power control, reconsidered the supply curve. The energy from the components of the Italian power unit is now used in the initial part of the straights. On the contrary, until the Spa Grand Prix (when ICE number 2 was still used), the energy spent by the PU Ferrari was handled differently, being used in the central and final part of the fees. Once the facts have been analyzed, let's now extrapolate the possible causes that, with results in hand, are creating a lot of curiosity about the operation of the Red engine.

Technical analysis SF90: Endothermic aspiration system

Thanks to the information gathered by FUnoAT, the secret of the Ferrari engine derives from the endothermic intake system, which can only be used in the classification phase. In fact, analyzing the last seasonal rounds, the advantage of the SF90 towards Mercedes is greater in qualifying. During the race, on the other hand, the competitiveness of the Italian car seems to go down, aligning itself with that of the silver arrows. The hypotheses, to which we can appeal to explain this advantage, refer mainly to the air intake manifold cooling, as well as to the use of cooling oil to increase performance.

Ferrari would use a pressurized oil-air intercooler, finding ways to bring part of the cooling oil directly into the combustion chamber, since, in this respect, there are no standards in this regard. A more powerful endothermic engine allows Ferrari drivers to start recovering energy earlier than other teams, being able to start this operation already in the final parts of the straights. This aspect would connect with the preview provided by FUnoAT towards the end of the past season (click here), when we talked about the innovative PU Ferrari cooling system already used on motorcycles (mixed air / cooling oil systems). The benefit, to put two numbers black on white, should be around 20cv in qualifying, falling to 10cv in the race.
Here they write that Red Bull has a lot of problems this year (though I don’t understand the term "penetration coefficient")
Paradoxically, for a car aerodynamically always at the top, this year the "deficiencies" are strictly attributable to other areas. While talking about an excellent car, the non-optimal penetration coefficient, the lower mechanical grip, and the load loss generated by the bottom with the new regulation on the front wings, have created many headaches for the energy drinks team.
https://www.f1analisitecnica.com/2019/1 ... esh_ce=800

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ScrewCaptain27
577
Joined: 31 Jan 2017, 01:13
Location: Udine, Italy

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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KelsO wrote:
07 Oct 2019, 19:08
Well, as I said, the Ferrari advantage makes about 20-25 hp. in qualification (10 per race), not 40kW.
Here's a pretty interesting article.

https://www.f1analisitecnica.com/2019/1 ... sh_ce=5837
Technical analysis SF90: Reconstruction

During the last month so many voices have chased each other in the paddock. Despite the absence of tangible evidence on the alleged irregularity, the goodness of the work of the Maranello technicians was strongly questioned. The accusation, bragged against by his opponents, spoke of an escamotage capable of circumventing the technical regulation, providing the SF90 with an extra power of 40 kilowatts, in spite of the strict FIA controls. Going through the rules that act on the hybrid part, we note that the Formula One regulation does not impose limits on energy recovery through MGU-H. This component, mounted on the turbine impeller and compressor shaft, generates current.
It does this by turning excess kinetic energy from the turbine into electricity. Therefore, a single-seater capable of producing extra power with the MGU-H, capable of sending it directly to the MGU-K without going through the battery, does not break the rules. On this basis probably the accusation of the last few weeks, confirmed by the statements of Helmut Marko first and Wolff then. Furthermore, according to sources of Red Bull councilor, Renault was the first to knock on the door of the FIA, asking for explanations in this regard. The international federation, however, despite repeated complaints coming from multiple fronts, has nevertheless not pronounced.

Technical analysis SF90: Concrete facts

We have to analyze the tangible facts, using the data coming directly from the track. Only then can we get an idea of ​​the situation, trying to understand how the Ferrari SF90 power unit works. The Maranello team's engine is certainly a strong point of the 2019 project. Binotto, in his latest statements (click here), has wisely tried to shift the attention elsewhere, placing the exclamation point on the aerodynamics of the Italian car. Undoubtedly, the Rossa low drag philosophy puts the accent on the performance of the Italian engine, thanks to the low aerodynamic penetration coefficient it has. That said, in the recent races of the 2019 championship, FUnoAT noted how the technicians of the historic team worked on a different engine supply.
We specify. In general, wherever we are in the world, the optimal use of the power unit makes the difference. Therefore, guaranteeing the right power by balancing it between straights, power recovery, acceleration and overtaking during the race, is crucial to produce a good performance. Precisely for this reason, as we can see in the image below, the Cavallino technicians have made some changes to the third Power Unit specification.
https://www.f1analisitecnica.com/wp-con ... -49-00.jpg
The work carried out, purely concerning power control, reconsidered the supply curve. The energy from the components of the Italian power unit is now used in the initial part of the straights. On the contrary, until the Spa Grand Prix (when ICE number 2 was still used), the energy spent by the PU Ferrari was handled differently, being used in the central and final part of the fees. Once the facts have been analyzed, let's now extrapolate the possible causes that, with results in hand, are creating a lot of curiosity about the operation of the Red engine.

Technical analysis SF90: Endothermic aspiration system

Thanks to the information gathered by FUnoAT, the secret of the Ferrari engine derives from the endothermic intake system, which can only be used in the classification phase. In fact, analyzing the last seasonal rounds, the advantage of the SF90 towards Mercedes is greater in qualifying. During the race, on the other hand, the competitiveness of the Italian car seems to go down, aligning itself with that of the silver arrows. The hypotheses, to which we can appeal to explain this advantage, refer mainly to the air intake manifold cooling, as well as to the use of cooling oil to increase performance.

Ferrari would use a pressurized oil-air intercooler, finding ways to bring part of the cooling oil directly into the combustion chamber, since, in this respect, there are no standards in this regard. A more powerful endothermic engine allows Ferrari drivers to start recovering energy earlier than other teams, being able to start this operation already in the final parts of the straights. This aspect would connect with the preview provided by FUnoAT towards the end of the past season (click here), when we talked about the innovative PU Ferrari cooling system already used on motorcycles (mixed air / cooling oil systems). The benefit, to put two numbers black on white, should be around 20cv in qualifying, falling to 10cv in the race.
Here they write that Red Bull has a lot of problems this year (though I don’t understand the term "penetration coefficient")
Paradoxically, for a car aerodynamically always at the top, this year the "deficiencies" are strictly attributable to other areas. While talking about an excellent car, the non-optimal penetration coefficient, the lower mechanical grip, and the load loss generated by the bottom with the new regulation on the front wings, have created many headaches for the energy drinks team.
https://www.f1analisitecnica.com/2019/1 ... esh_ce=800
“Penetration coefficient” is a literal translation of “coefficiente di penetrazione” which is the drag coefficient.
"Stupid people do stupid things. Smart people outsmart each other, then themselves."
- Serj Tankian

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Marti_EF3
56
Joined: 30 May 2017, 00:45
Location: Spain

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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It will be wind at Suzuka during all weekend. And the RB15 don't like it... Also with rain. Could be a mess of a race, or an excellent one like Germany #-o

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loner
16
Joined: 26 Feb 2016, 18:34

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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its only matter of time before two things gonna happens
- the 3 other manufacturers will discover and do the trick that make ferrari has an advantage with their PU.
- RBR will fully exploit the Honda PU integration in their car its only the first some months with it.
para bellum.

McMika98
-24
Joined: 18 Feb 2017, 22:40

Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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In other news Alex Albon completed 115 laps in Pirelli testing alongside Seb Vettel who did 145. It should help him for this weekend.
Also no suprises, the forecast is for supertyphoon Hagibis to make landfall Saturday with high winds predicted through Sunday. Will we get a race? All that Suzuka special nonsense is meaningless if it is that windy and wet. Funny how i did warn of this outcome.

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