2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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diffuser
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by diffuser » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:41 pm

Bill wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:57 pm
Yamamoto has already has something to say about Honda becoming a works team as for Rbr the always struggle with new tech regulations so next year should be okay like the had issues in 2017 but fixed them in 2018 and they still have newey
What options do they have ?

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Thu Oct 17, 2019 3:57 am

loner wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:58 pm
diffuser wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:09 pm
After the PU has been out for a couple of years the design changes are minimal with regards to "designed for them". To make a major change now would cause a ton of reliability issues. So realy to design the car around the PU becomes fairly easy and all the teams are doing that. Any new updates are the kind that all teams can take advantage of.
lets get to the point
your beloved Mclaren in 2018 first year with Renault achieved 6th with 62 points but in 2019 they are 4th with 111 and 4 races yet to run, RBR is a guru car builder they will fix their problems, iam struggle to understand why people call RBR current concept is a failure when after introducing a new FW in Austria they were very competitive until summer break
i think their concept can be mega again and yes i think its because 2 factors changing the PU manufacturer and the new regulations but they will restore their efficient car soon, they delayed their new FW in Suzuka its good as long they thought it won't make big different perhaps it will debut in Mexico after being revised.
I think big gains are possible still. As Mercedes has shown, the side pod deflectors and their interaction with barge board airflow is very important.

Red Bull doesn't have a Cape like Mercedes or Ferrari either.

Not saying they need one, it's just that the car is behind the curve. There are things that have not been as developed as they could due to stuffing a new power unit.

They definitely have a chance to take a nice step over the winter, I wonder if the rumors of Honda taking over come from any increased investment Red Bull is asking to develop the chassis.

Naturally if they made that investment they'd want more influence in the team.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

diffuser
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by diffuser » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:35 am

loner wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:58 pm
diffuser wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:09 pm
After the PU has been out for a couple of years the design changes are minimal with regards to "designed for them". To make a major change now would cause a ton of reliability issues. So realy to design the car around the PU becomes fairly easy and all the teams are doing that. Any new updates are the kind that all teams can take advantage of.
lets get to the point
your beloved Mclaren in 2018 first year with Renault achieved 6th with 62 points but in 2019 they are 4th with 111 and 4 races yet to run, RBR is a guru car builder they will fix their problems, iam struggle to understand why people call RBR current concept is a failure when after introducing a new FW in Austria they were very competitive until summer break
i think their concept can be mega again and yes i think its because 2 factors changing the PU manufacturer and the new regulations but they will restore their efficient car soon, they delayed their new FW in Suzuka its good as long they thought it won't make big different perhaps it will debut in Mexico after being revised.
Yeah, I don't think it is a failed concept. Think it's a very good chassis.

Wouter
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Wouter » Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:53 am

diffuser wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:35 am
Yeah, I don't think it is a failed concept. Think it's a very good chassis.
If this is a good chassis, why is it that they have not been able to develop properly functioning parts all year round, except for Austria?
Every new part gives no improvement, while Mercedes and Ferrari have greatly improved their cars.
RBR must consider a completely different concept, because they do not get further with this, but they fall further and further behind.
RBR has repeatedly stated that the car is very difficult to adjust, it has to be very accurate to get the car properly "in the window" and that only happened in Austria. :(

seense
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by seense » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:03 am

Lets hope this is the reason why the RB15 is falling behind:
At the request of GPUpdate.net what kind of starting position Red Bull is in for 2020, given that the regulations are stable next year, Verstappen replied: "I think that a lot of people are already busy for next year. This season there is not much left in the championship anyway, only third place actually, realistically, being a team we will be third anyway. We already know what we will get from Honda next year, so that's good, and then we still need to know where we made mistakes this year, and we hope we can have, of course, resolved next year. "

etusch
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by etusch » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:24 am

Wouter wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:53 am
diffuser wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:35 am
Yeah, I don't think it is a failed concept. Think it's a very good chassis.
If this is a good chassis, why is it that they have not been able to develop properly functioning parts all year round, except for Austria?
Every new part gives no improvement, while Mercedes and Ferrari have greatly improved their cars.
RBR must consider a completely different concept, because they do not get further with this, but they fall further and further behind.
RBR has repeatedly stated that the car is very difficult to adjust, it has to be very accurate to get the car properly "in the window" and that only happened in Austria. :(
I am not sure if ferrari really developed. Anyway it just save them to lost second place in wcc, nothing more. If ferrari didn't bring any update until mid season which is only worked one, you may be right. If they brought updates but only midseason one worked what is different at Ferrari condition from Redbull's?
If ferrari had not got pu advantage where they would be with that working update ?
It is known that redbul could not do well this season but their chassis is not that worse. One small thing made big difference and maybe another small trick would make them best if they can find where it is. But if everything in the edge it must be harder to find where is the issue preventing concept to work. Think that McLaren could not found where they were missing when they were bad at everywhere.

Wouter
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Wouter » Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:52 am

etusch wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:24 am
Wouter wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:53 am
diffuser wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:35 am
Yeah, I don't think it is a failed concept. Think it's a very good chassis.
If this is a good chassis, why is it that they have not been able to develop properly functioning parts all year round, except for Austria?
Every new part gives no improvement, while Mercedes and Ferrari have greatly improved their cars.
RBR must consider a completely different concept, because they do not get further with this, but they fall further and further behind.
RBR has repeatedly stated that the car is very difficult to adjust, it has to be very accurate to get the car properly "in the window" and that only happened in Austria. :(
.
It is known that redbul could not do well this season but their chassis is not that worse. One small thing made big difference and maybe another small trick would make them best if they can find where it is.
That is precisely the problem, it is not in one thing, but everything must work well together and they cannot get it done.
Other teams adjust their car well in the FP1. Then they can ride many laps on Fridays.
RBR cannot do many laps, because they keep experimenting with the adjustment, even until during qualifying!
That indicates that they are not getting the right set up properly. The car is very difficult to adjust and it is still not good.
All the new parts don't seem to work, so there is no alternative but to come up with a different concept for next season.
I hope they will do that then.
They have no other choice, because with this car they always stay behind Ferrari and Mercedes and they can forget the world championship.
Disappointment for Honda, because the engine is good enough for victories if the car was a lot better.

Ferrari has certainly changed the car recently. The rear is now much more stable and since then Vettel can also perform much better in the car, luckily.

loner
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by loner » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:16 am

Wouter wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 9:52 am
That is precisely the problem, it is not in one thing, but everything must work well together and they cannot get it done.
Other teams adjust their car well in the FP1. Then they can ride many laps on Fridays.
RBR cannot do many laps, because they keep experimenting with the adjustment, even until during qualifying!
That indicates that they are not getting the right set up properly. The car is very difficult to adjust and it is still not good.
All the new parts don't seem to work, so there is no alternative but to come up with a different concept for next season.
I hope they will do that then.
They have no other choice, because with this car they always stay behind Ferrari and Mercedes and they can forget the world championship.
Disappointment for Honda, because the engine is good enough for victories if the car was a lot better.
Ferrari has certainly changed the car recently. The rear is now much more stable and since then Vettel can also perform much better in the car, luckily.
the Ferrari concept was more of a failure than RBR according to them selves and the expertise people.
before Singapore Mark Hughes asked whos gonna win Mercs or RBR
Mercedes and Red Bull set for another Singapore shoot-out
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opin ... -shoot-out
others said the only 2 races Ferrari would win are SPA and Monza.
this is year one with a new PU from a new manufacture they will figure out the fruiting point or they will gonna change the concept wasting another year experimenting new pieces ?!!
para bellum.

loner
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by loner » Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:35 am

diffuser wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:35 am
Yeah, I don't think it is a failed concept. Think it's a very good chassis.
if you implying the PU is the problem you must be blind they qualified 1 tenth off in Silverstone AND their race pace nothing short of Mercs and Ferrari i think during summer break Ferrari and Mercs weren't napping while RBR were.
para bellum.

Jaisonas
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Jaisonas » Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:59 am

loner wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 10:35 am
diffuser wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 8:35 am
Yeah, I don't think it is a failed concept. Think it's a very good chassis.
if you implying the PU is the problem you must be blind they qualified 1 tenth off in Silverstone AND their race pace nothing short of Mercs and Ferrari i think during summer break Ferrari and Mercs weren't napping while RBR were.
The PU itself isnt a problem. Honda being able to tune it and do all the energy management is. On most races, the honda is clipping a lot more than the rest of the field. And all of honda's focus has been on the internal combustion engine and not on the electrics. They need to start shifting focus to that at some point cause, well look at ferrari's engine pace.

loner
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by loner » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:11 pm

Jaisonas wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 11:59 am
The PU itself isnt a problem. Honda being able to tune it and do all the energy management is. On most races, the honda is clipping a lot more than the rest of the field. And all of honda's focus has been on the internal combustion engine and not on the electrics. They need to start shifting focus to that at some point cause, well look at ferrari's engine pace.
well teams still want a clarification about it.
Ferrari engine under scrutiny as F1 teams chase FIA
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferr ... a/4559167/
para bellum.

Manoah2u
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Manoah2u » Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:31 pm

Okay, let's go through it one more time.

This season is the first the RB is fitted with a Honda engine. Yes they have the information and benefit from the 2018 Toro Rosso pack, and been preparing more or less to have this year's car carrying a Honda engine, BUT the fact remains that originally, when development started on this car, which is an evolution of the 2018 car and arguably the 2017 car, then you realise that was in mind with the Renault powerplant and all that accompanied that.
It is therefor an 'altered' design/concept. It also, very much, remains a 'development' or 'adjustment' year of fusing RB with Honda and its philosophy, whilst Honda is evolving engines.In other words this year first of all is a compromise.
It is also a 'testbed' of sorts, so there are compromises there too.They're above all focusing on 2020, which has been mentioned that Verstappen, RBR and Honda have a rather positive view of.

If you concider that they already have 2 wins under their belt despite the compromised setting, and are very much competitive just slightly off the full pace of Merc/Fer then that's pretty impressive.I also have noticed a very distinctive sound the Honda engine produces when off-throttle (some here have mentioned it sounds like blown diffuser sounds) which the other teams lack, meaning they are not just copying eachother but have their own philosophy going on.

In the end, verdict then must be that 2019 isn't bad at all of RBR and actually pretty impressive. They're not where they wanted to be, fair, but they'll get there.

2020 will be much more of a season to reasonably judge RBR-Honda. All the more interesting to concider that Honda has not decided on post-2020 engine programme, so i'm inclined to believe/expect that Honda's F1 engine department is going to go all out on the 2020 spec engine, as will RBR, to have success in 2020 and as such give Honda no choice but to stay in F1.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

GPR -A
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by GPR -A » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:16 pm

Manoah2u wrote:
Thu Oct 17, 2019 12:31 pm
Okay, let's go through it one more time.

This season is the first the RB is fitted with a Honda engine. Yes they have the information and benefit from the 2018 Toro Rosso pack, and been preparing more or less to have this year's car carrying a Honda engine, BUT the fact remains that originally, when development started on this car, which is an evolution of the 2018 car and arguably the 2017 car, then you realise that was in mind with the Renault powerplant and all that accompanied that.
It is therefor an 'altered' design/concept. It also, very much, remains a 'development' or 'adjustment' year of fusing RB with Honda and its philosophy, whilst Honda is evolving engines.In other words this year first of all is a compromise.
It is also a 'testbed' of sorts, so there are compromises there too.They're above all focusing on 2020, which has been mentioned that Verstappen, RBR and Honda have a rather positive view of.

If you concider that they already have 2 wins under their belt despite the compromised setting, and are very much competitive just slightly off the full pace of Merc/Fer then that's pretty impressive.I also have noticed a very distinctive sound the Honda engine produces when off-throttle (some here have mentioned it sounds like blown diffuser sounds) which the other teams lack, meaning they are not just copying eachother but have their own philosophy going on.

In the end, verdict then must be that 2019 isn't bad at all of RBR and actually pretty impressive. They're not where they wanted to be, fair, but they'll get there.

2020 will be much more of a season to reasonably judge RBR-Honda. All the more interesting to concider that Honda has not decided on post-2020 engine programme, so i'm inclined to believe/expect that Honda's F1 engine department is going to go all out on the 2020 spec engine, as will RBR, to have success in 2020 and as such give Honda no choice but to stay in F1.
Worth keeping this framed and put it on wall, so that I can look at this after every race next year.

HPD
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by HPD » Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:34 pm

As @Manoah2u explains, 2019 is not a perfect year for several reasons.
Tanabe or Yamamoto recently said that RB has already asked Honda to modify some areas of the engine, to improve the 2020 packaging.
This only makes me think that the final design of the RB was not what everyone wanted.
Anyway I am enjoying the association. Win or not

TNTHead
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by TNTHead » Thu Oct 17, 2019 2:08 pm

Still wondering, after the previous rule change (2017) RB did have windtunnel calibration issues. Since they now have difficulties with the setup (and sensitivity to transversal wind speeds) does anyone has an indication that they again are having windtunnel-track validation issues?

One would think in that direction if they bring parts to the track without the desired effect (like the most recent front wing spec).