2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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ispano6
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by ispano6 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:05 am

Wazari wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:15 pm
I myself have really mixed feelings about this season. I believe the "5" spec PU should have been introduced this season. However, it seems that maximum emphasis has been placed on dialing in the ICE to its maximum potential while leaving other components the same to decrease the number of variables to be assessed on the limited amount of track time. Strategies with regards to fuel upgrades did a U-turn before summer break that also had a big effect on when upgrades would be introduced. So while I am pleased with progress made this season, I am also disappointed. However, I can understand as fuel blends have really evolved over the past season and can be a real difference maker. Ferrari's exhaust smell has changed drastically between Singapore and Sochi. I first noticed in Sochi that Ferrari's exhaust fumes smelled like a wood fire. Only the factory team. Mercedes always had a distinct smell from the beginning of this season, like plastic burning, again only the factory team. The rest smell like what you would expect for a non-emission controlled gasoline engine. The Honda's exhaust smell did change at Suzuka from previous races.

Going back to Red Bull, I wouldn't be surprised if the RB16 has a much different aero concept from this year's car. As far as the PU, looks like Spec 5.XXX will be Spec 1 for next year.
The Honda's exhaust smell changed but I actually only detected that "metallic" scent during the race. It smelled like the Mercedes factory team exhaust. Asaki-san mentioned in an interview that the new fuel blend was to reduce knocking. Going by what David Tsurusaki said about the introduction of chemicals new to their F1 fuels but something that has been available to conventional gasoline it's reasonable to think that the new fuel incorporates an anti-knock agent. From wikipedia these include: Tetraethyllead, Alcohol, Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT), Ferrocene, Iron pentacarbonyl, Toluene, Isooctane. If I had to guess I suppose it smelled like lead or soldering iron.

diffuser
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by diffuser » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:25 am

godlameroso wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:44 pm
diffuser wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:52 pm
Capharol wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:20 pm


that goes for me with Leclerc, to political, to smooth, to obvious, saw once how he suddenly became active as he noticed the camera was pointed at him, but before he did that, he was just doing nothing .... (hope you understand what i wanna say)
this was the same, and sometime still is, with Lewis, remember a while ago where he, after winning, always said "oh these are the best fans, is the best track, etc."
with Max, to me, it's more naturel, he speaks out what he thinks, most other drivers don't
My problems are not with Max and how he behaves. More with what I think they allow him to do. I'm just not a fan of all this contact on the track. I was a fan of the "always leave space when passing". I wouldn't want my drivers making contact if I was a team principle. It has a high probablity of ending in tears. That 's just my opinion, I realise other have a different perspective and I respect that.
He doesn't and hasn't punted anyone off track that didn't try something that wasn't possible. He's a clean racer, he knows the limit of the car and what it can take, it's part of what makes him a complete driver.
I don't really care who was/is at fault. if they keep driving with contact, it will make it harder for them to win. There will be retirements because of it. Brazil 2018 and Suzuka 2019 are just case and point.
Last edited by diffuser on Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by GPR-A » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:10 am

godlameroso wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:44 pm
diffuser wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:52 pm
Capharol wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:20 pm


that goes for me with Leclerc, to political, to smooth, to obvious, saw once how he suddenly became active as he noticed the camera was pointed at him, but before he did that, he was just doing nothing .... (hope you understand what i wanna say)
this was the same, and sometime still is, with Lewis, remember a while ago where he, after winning, always said "oh these are the best fans, is the best track, etc."
with Max, to me, it's more naturel, he speaks out what he thinks, most other drivers don't
My problems are not with Max and how he behaves. More with what I think they allow him to do. I'm just not a fan of all this contact on the track. I was a fan of the "always leave space when passing". I wouldn't want my drivers making contact if I was a team principle. It has a high probablity of ending in tears. That 's just my opinion, I realise other have a different perspective and I respect that.
He doesn't and hasn't punted anyone off track that didn't try something that wasn't possible. He's a clean racer, he knows the limit of the car and what it can take, it's part of what makes him a complete driver.
You must be joking right? He almost beat Maldonado for being the most reckless driver on track. He only got a bit sensible after his incident with Ricciardo last year in Baku.

He has a long to way to go before he becomes a complete driver. It is understandable that he is eager to win and hasn't yet learnt how to live for another day as the car that he has doesn't offer too many days of joy, which makes him go for those stupid moves sometimes, like that dive bomb lunge in Monaco that could have potentially ended Lewis' race if Lewis wouldn't have immediately reacted to the slight contact. If it would have been Vettel in place of Lewis, it definitely would have been a disaster for both, like it always happens.

He is definitely the most potent driver on the grid, but not complete yet.

restless
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by restless » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:44 am

on autosport forums there was a translation:
т

https://f1-gate.com/honda/f1_52742.html

Honda F1 Special Feature: PU Development Manager Yasuaki Asagi speaks at the forefront of F1 engine development



新燃料について具体的に質問された浅木泰昭は「ノッキングに代表されるように、エンジンにダメージを与えるような燃焼を抑えながら、いかに熱効率、同じ燃料量からピストンを押し下げる力を強くするか、気筒内の圧力を上げていくかということだ。それを両立させることが燃料開発。異常燃焼を避け、爆発圧力を高めるということだ」とコメント。

Asked what the purpose of the new fuel was, Asaki replies "Largely encompassing Knocking, reducing damage due to combustion, increasing efficiency and power utilizing the same fuel amount, and increasing internal cylinder pressure."

He also reveals the other Honda entity that assisted in the ExxonMobil fuel collaboration:



「以前も話したが、ホンダジェットの部門がパワーユニットの開発に協力してたのと同じような形で、先端技術研究所のジェット機用燃料などを含めて未来の燃料を研究している部署、協力してもらい開発した。F1に使える燃料としては既存のガソリンに成分として含まれているものを使って開発する必要があり、ホンダ側である程度あたりをつけて『こんなものががいい』という話をエクソンと話しながら、パワーユニットのマッチングを行なっていった」

Like I had mentioned before, similar to how Honda Jet assisted in power unit development, the Honda R&D Innovative Research Excellence, a division working on Jet fuel and future fuel technology assisted in development. With the intent for F1 use and with the need to utilize existing gasoline ingredients, from Honda side asked for a particular type of fuel, and with collaboration with Exxon, worked to match it to the power unit.



「正直に言えば、F1に協力してほしいというと最初はあまりいい顔をされない場合もあった。だが、最近では勝つと一緒に喜び、逆に負けると一緒に悔しがってもらえる仲間になってきている。そうした一体感をもららす効果のようなこともある」

Honestly speaking, when asked (other divisions) to contribute to the Honda F1 program, in the beginning it was met with a negative response. However, recently, the joy of winning and agony of defeat is becoming something we're all sharing more. This has given us solidarity.

ispano6
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by ispano6 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:27 am

restless wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:44 am
on autosport forums there was a translation:
т

https://f1-gate.com/honda/f1_52742.html

Honda F1 Special Feature: PU Development Manager Yasuaki Asagi speaks at the forefront of F1 engine development



新燃料について具体的に質問された浅木泰昭は「ノッキングに代表されるように、エンジンにダメージを与えるような燃焼を抑えながら、いかに熱効率、同じ燃料量からピストンを押し下げる力を強くするか、気筒内の圧力を上げていくかということだ。それを両立させることが燃料開発。異常燃焼を避け、爆発圧力を高めるということだ」とコメント。

Asked what the purpose of the new fuel was, Asaki replies "Largely encompassing Knocking, reducing damage due to combustion, increasing efficiency and power utilizing the same fuel amount, and increasing internal cylinder pressure."

He also reveals the other Honda entity that assisted in the ExxonMobil fuel collaboration:



「以前も話したが、ホンダジェットの部門がパワーユニットの開発に協力してたのと同じような形で、先端技術研究所のジェット機用燃料などを含めて未来の燃料を研究している部署、協力してもらい開発した。F1に使える燃料としては既存のガソリンに成分として含まれているものを使って開発する必要があり、ホンダ側である程度あたりをつけて『こんなものががいい』という話をエクソンと話しながら、パワーユニットのマッチングを行なっていった」

Like I had mentioned before, similar to how Honda Jet assisted in power unit development, the Honda R&D Innovative Research Excellence, a division working on Jet fuel and future fuel technology assisted in development. With the intent for F1 use and with the need to utilize existing gasoline ingredients, from Honda side asked for a particular type of fuel, and with collaboration with Exxon, worked to match it to the power unit.



「正直に言えば、F1に協力してほしいというと最初はあまりいい顔をされない場合もあった。だが、最近では勝つと一緒に喜び、逆に負けると一緒に悔しがってもらえる仲間になってきている。そうした一体感をもららす効果のようなこともある」

Honestly speaking, when asked (other divisions) to contribute to the Honda F1 program, in the beginning it was met with a negative response. However, recently, the joy of winning and agony of defeat is becoming something we're all sharing more. This has given us solidarity.
This was my personal translation, not Autosports.

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:29 pm

ispano6 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:05 am
Wazari wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:15 pm
I myself have really mixed feelings about this season. I believe the "5" spec PU should have been introduced this season. However, it seems that maximum emphasis has been placed on dialing in the ICE to its maximum potential while leaving other components the same to decrease the number of variables to be assessed on the limited amount of track time. Strategies with regards to fuel upgrades did a U-turn before summer break that also had a big effect on when upgrades would be introduced. So while I am pleased with progress made this season, I am also disappointed. However, I can understand as fuel blends have really evolved over the past season and can be a real difference maker. Ferrari's exhaust smell has changed drastically between Singapore and Sochi. I first noticed in Sochi that Ferrari's exhaust fumes smelled like a wood fire. Only the factory team. Mercedes always had a distinct smell from the beginning of this season, like plastic burning, again only the factory team. The rest smell like what you would expect for a non-emission controlled gasoline engine. The Honda's exhaust smell did change at Suzuka from previous races.

Going back to Red Bull, I wouldn't be surprised if the RB16 has a much different aero concept from this year's car. As far as the PU, looks like Spec 5.XXX will be Spec 1 for next year.
The Honda's exhaust smell changed but I actually only detected that "metallic" scent during the race. It smelled like the Mercedes factory team exhaust. Asaki-san mentioned in an interview that the new fuel blend was to reduce knocking. Going by what David Tsurusaki said about the introduction of chemicals new to their F1 fuels but something that has been available to conventional gasoline it's reasonable to think that the new fuel incorporates an anti-knock agent. From wikipedia these include: Tetraethyllead, Alcohol, Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT), Ferrocene, Iron pentacarbonyl, Toluene, Isooctane. If I had to guess I suppose it smelled like lead or soldering iron.
TEL is allowed in small quantities. The smell from burned solder is usually oil residue on the solder itself. They do allow and mandate a 5.75% bio component, I'm guessing this is where they're experimenting.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

restless
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by restless » Fri Oct 25, 2019 11:40 am

about bio-additives:
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/1 ... ptima.html
The top 10 blendstocks identified with the potential to increase engine efficiency by 10% using the efficiency merit function were:
i-Butanol
Cyclopentanone
Di-isobutylene
Ethanol
Furan mixture
Fusel alcohol mixture
Methanol
Prenol
i-Propanol
n-Propanol
Image

hasika
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by hasika » Fri Oct 25, 2019 2:45 pm

https://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=2019 ... 7-rcg-moto

Tanabe's interview.

──Mexico is said to be a special track, but what is the most difficult part of racing here?
Tanabe : The air is thin.For the Power Unit, the combustion characteristics will change and the cooling will be very important. It is necessary to check the water temperature and oil temperature frequently.

──I think that the last two years could have been a track for Red Bull, but Verstappen himself, who won twice here, said, “This year seems to be tough. Ferrari seems to be fast.”
Tanabe: I hear that, but I think everything is possible. I hope to have a good race.

──In fact, in Mexico GP, Honda is the most winning engine manufacturer.
Tanabe: I still remember that we always brought very special specification engines in the turbo era. The situation is different now, but I want to do my best.

──I think which car has the most downforce will be faster here(so Mercedes will be fast theoretically), but if the Mercedes will struggle here?
Tanabe : Mercedes seems to have some problems with cooling(this year).

── Let talk about Suzuka,did you feel disappointed?
Tanabe : Yeah. It was great to see Albon went up to 4th, but I think the fans want to see Max fighting. I wanted to see it too.Maybe he would finish the race with 4th too, but it must have been a great race to see.

──If there was no contact, Leclerc's car was ok too, it would not been an easy race,do you think so?
Tanabe : Yeah.Ferrari has a great car now, so maybe it would not be an easy race.

──After the summer break, Verstappen said that the biggest reason why Red Bull was so behind the top2 was the difference in the pace of the update. Do you agree?
Tanabe : As a package, they are definitely became faster.

──The evolution of RB15 has not been as big as last year?
Tanabe : Maybe. The car became faster at the time of Austria,then we saw we was behind in different type of tracks,some was said to fit for us,some was not.

── The chassis update to Suzuka was canceled just before the race weekend.
Tanabe : Well, there are many reasons.

──Speaking of Suzuka's race space,Albon is 6 or 7 tenths slower per lap. Is this difference quite large?
Tanabe : The trye degradation was very serious recently. Mercedes was always good for the trye,the performance of tyre didnt fall at all in the race . And Ferrari became better recently.Its a little painful.

Big Tea
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Big Tea » Fri Oct 25, 2019 3:13 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 3:29 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:05 am
Wazari wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:15 pm
I myself have really mixed feelings about this season. I believe the "5" spec PU should have been introduced this season. However, it seems that maximum emphasis has been placed on dialing in the ICE to its maximum potential while leaving other components the same to decrease the number of variables to be assessed on the limited amount of track time. Strategies with regards to fuel upgrades did a U-turn before summer break that also had a big effect on when upgrades would be introduced. So while I am pleased with progress made this season, I am also disappointed. However, I can understand as fuel blends have really evolved over the past season and can be a real difference maker. Ferrari's exhaust smell has changed drastically between Singapore and Sochi. I first noticed in Sochi that Ferrari's exhaust fumes smelled like a wood fire. Only the factory team. Mercedes always had a distinct smell from the beginning of this season, like plastic burning, again only the factory team. The rest smell like what you would expect for a non-emission controlled gasoline engine. The Honda's exhaust smell did change at Suzuka from previous races.

Going back to Red Bull, I wouldn't be surprised if the RB16 has a much different aero concept from this year's car. As far as the PU, looks like Spec 5.XXX will be Spec 1 for next year.
The Honda's exhaust smell changed but I actually only detected that "metallic" scent during the race. It smelled like the Mercedes factory team exhaust. Asaki-san mentioned in an interview that the new fuel blend was to reduce knocking. Going by what David Tsurusaki said about the introduction of chemicals new to their F1 fuels but something that has been available to conventional gasoline it's reasonable to think that the new fuel incorporates an anti-knock agent. From wikipedia these include: Tetraethyllead, Alcohol, Methylcyclopentadienyl manganese tricarbonyl (MMT), Ferrocene, Iron pentacarbonyl, Toluene, Isooctane. If I had to guess I suppose it smelled like lead or soldering iron.
TEL is allowed in small quantities. The smell from burned solder is usually oil residue on the solder itself. They do allow and mandate a 5.75% bio component, I'm guessing this is where they're experimenting.
Is there an allowable way to apply a 'seal coat' inside the cylinder for just a few laps extra benefit? and could this be what the smell and smoke at start is? I remember a product from years gone that was pored in the spark plug holes of a worn engine which sealed the rings for a short time just to get past a test. Dont recall the name, but a few laps during qualli it could maybe present a tiny but significant improvement to move up a couple of slots.
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:22 pm

More curious is how fuel is analyzed and how it's composition can be tricky to validate. The main method of analysis is spectroscopy, it is very reliable, certain compounds will always give off certain spectral lines. In the end though, it isn't perfect, because there are compounds that can give nearly identical spectral lines but have completely different properties. Remember there is no way to identify the true composition of hydrocarbons, they are far too complex. So in order to make sense of the complexity, mass fractions of fuel are determined by burning them, and seeing which spectral lines are emitted by their burning. That is how the FIA determine the composition of the fuel. If X amount of fuel is burned, and you have x amount of spectral lines at a certain frequency, then you know your fuel has X compound, in X quantity.

The composition is specified by the rules, and are verified using an engineering methodology. ASTM D 3244 is a validation test, one I happen to be quite familiar with, and know it's weaknesses.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by bigblue » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:51 pm

I presume there's not much to be gained from trying to collect exhaust fumes at the races, else everyone would have been running around with bottles and corks trying to collect Ferrari's clouds of smoke out of the garage.

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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Marti_EF3 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:24 pm

I've a more positive feeling than at Suzuka. But things change a lot on saturdays. So we will see... [-o<

McMika98
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by McMika98 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:42 pm

Rain tomorrow and so green track again. Suits Redbull and Toro Rosso. No wind also helps.

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:45 pm

Marti_EF3 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:24 pm
I've a more positive feeling than at Suzuka. But things change a lot on saturdays. So we will see... [-o<
FP2 race pace is looking pretty decent, very close between Vettel Hamilton and Verstappen, at a glance anyway it looks like they are within .2 seconds of each other. Of course Ferrari could turn up their engines tomorrow and widen the gap. However as far as race pace is concerned it's hard to see who's fastest, they're very close together.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

Brake Horse Power
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Brake Horse Power » Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:37 am

So the interview with Tanabe says 'the chassis update' wasn't done in Suzuka, did they do it now?