2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Wynters
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Wynters » Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:49 pm

SF Engineer wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:36 pm
Anyone who is involved in deciding the driver line up of the top 3 teams and not focused primarily on maximizing on-track performance should need to be replaced immediately.
Regardless of who we're talking about (and I think Albon is the success story of this season), teams are in F1 to make money as their primary goal. If they think they'll make more money through marketing than through performance then they will prioritise marketing. In this case, Red Bull are a hundred points off Ferrari and two hundred points clear of 4th. Are a few extra points going to significantly alter the profitability of the company?

That said, RBR are in the fortunate position that promoting Albon and retaining him would appear to make both sporting and financial sense so it was likely an easy choice.

SF Engineer
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by SF Engineer » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:14 pm

Wynters wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:49 pm
SF Engineer wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:36 pm
Anyone who is involved in deciding the driver line up of the top 3 teams and not focused primarily on maximizing on-track performance should need to be replaced immediately.
Regardless of who we're talking about (and I think Albon is the success story of this season), teams are in F1 to make money as their primary goal. If they think they'll make more money through marketing than through performance then they will prioritise marketing. In this case, Red Bull are a hundred points off Ferrari and two hundred points clear of 4th. Are a few extra points going to significantly alter the profitability of the company?

That said, RBR are in the fortunate position that promoting Albon and retaining him would appear to make both sporting and financial sense so it was likely an easy choice.
While it pains me to say so, I do not disagree that the primary goal of f1 teams is to make money. That said, given the prize money involved (and the publicity associated with winning) the difference between finishing 1st or 3rd in the constructors championship (for example) would likely outweigh the impact that placing an Asian driver would have on drinks sales in Asian markets.

Supplementally, I would wonder whether or not having a driver of partially Thai heritage would have any effect on sales of Red Bull in any Asian country outside of perhaps Thailand (where I’d assume sales of Red Bull are near saturation anyway).

Therefore I don’t believe my argument that prioritizing on track performance above all else is flawed in any late way, as it is also appears to be the best way for teams to ensure positive financial impact).

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:51 pm

I think Albon has done enough to justify keeping his seat, compared to the other two candidates. Maybe next year he can be closer to Verstappen when both learn the new car at the same time and rate. If the car performance improves by .3 relative to the others, it's likely that Albon will place the car where Verstappen has managed this year, and that Verstappen will be winning races.

I think that part of the reason Verstappen is so far ahead is that the car has been built around his preferences, and those preferences may not gel with other drivers. I can understand why RB did this as it's likely more cost effective to develop one car for one driver, and use the other one to help develop the main car. They had to do this to remain competitive, it was either 2 cars .6-.8 seconds off the pace or one car that far off the pace and the other one a bit closer. Probably in part due to them adopting a brand new power unit with a new layout.
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loner
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by loner » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:08 pm

Red Bull is going to try things for 2020 in final races
The first steps in that process are already being taken in the last races of 2019. "We will already start during the last two races of this year. We will try out some concepts for next year."
Verstappen is a free man for 2021 However, he himself has no reason to look for another team
I still enjoy working with them. It's a great group people and I feel at home here. I don't want to change teams at all.
https://www.gptoday.net/nl/nieuws/f1/25 ... m-wisselen
para bellum.

Big Tea
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Big Tea » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:23 pm

just on the flash, albon named as driver

edit oops, caught napping sorry
One test is worth a thousand expert opinions

Capharol
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Capharol » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:53 pm

SF Engineer wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 3:36 pm
In a team of Red Bull's caliber, I would sincerely doubt there is any conspiracy to promote a driver of Asian decent due to the fact that Asia is a large potential market. Anyone who is involved in deciding the driver line up of the top 3 teams and not focused primarily on maximizing on-track performance should need to be replaced immediately.

From my perspective (an industry professional, albeit not involved directly in F1), Albon has shown more than Pierre did in his time with the big team. Pierre is a very talented guy. However, drivers of equivalent talents are not necessarily interchangeable in the same car.

As was partially alluded to earlier, given a car tailored to their preferences, there is likely less than 0.5 sec between the majority of the F1 grid. Unfortunately (for this argument), modern top tier racing cars are no longer designed around the driver - as this is does not result in the highest potential froma vehicle dynamics point of view. Modern cars are built to maximize the performance of the vehicle, and then drivers who can extract the largest percentage of said performance over the highest frequency of events are promoted to drive them. The team which can build/set-up the car with the highest potential may not be the one with the largest window of extraction. This certainly appears to be the case with Red Bull. The car they have designed obviouslt has a high potential (at the very least top 3 potential in F1), but the window for performance extraction appears to be relatively narrow.

In the above scenario, as in any scenario, it is ideal to have a driver who can extract 100% of the performance of the car 100% of the time. Unfortunately from an engineering standpoint (fortunately from an entertainment standpoint) these guys are not robots, they are 20-something year-old boys. This means you inevitably will have a range on both extraction percentage and frequency. For me, Albon has shown he can produce a larger sum of the two than Gasly in the RB car. Alternatively Gasly seems to be able to at least match Albon in the STR. Therefore the decision made by Red Bull today appears to be quite logical (assuming the choice is limited to the two of them).

I understand that this is an internet forum, and that people are called fans for a reason (fanatics), but often wish topics would be approached with less emotion and more reason. These types of organizations do not tend to make whimsical decisions in the modern era.
this post is undoubtfully, most likely the biggest runaround to say "Albon was better then Gasly, and both are happy where they are now" 😂😂😉
but it is F*cking great

and especcially that bold marked line should be hanging out in every topic (yeah i know i am guilty aswell), and its a good addition to my line in my signature and if SF Engineer allows i wanna use it in my signature ....... so Mods do something with this line
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
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Wynters
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Wynters » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:06 pm

SF Engineer wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:14 pm
Therefore I don’t believe my argument that prioritizing on track performance above all else is flawed in any late way, as it is also appears to be the best way for teams to ensure positive financial impact).
I think I agree with all the points you make. The only things I would add are that sometimes (rarely) prioritising performance on track will yield no difference in WCC standing (e.g. RBR at the moment). However, any prospective gains/losses are clearly measurable in the WDC. As you point out, marketing benefits are substantially harder to accurately predict and verify which would make investment on track a more certain approach.

Wynters
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Wynters » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:13 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:51 pm
I think that part of the reason Verstappen is so far ahead is that the car has been built around his preferences, and those preferences may not gel with other drivers. I can understand why RB did this as it's likely more cost effective to develop one car for one driver, and use the other one to help develop the main car. They had to do this to remain competitive, it was either 2 cars .6-.8 seconds off the pace or one car that far off the pace and the other one a bit closer. Probably in part due to them adopting a brand new power unit with a new layout.
It also makes sense in terms of building a long term strategy. Verstappen is clearly a WDC capable driver. Providing him with motivation and rewards (GP wins) during seasons when he's not challenging for the WDC encourages him to stay with RBR. Albon, Kvyat and Gasly may or may not be very good drivers but I don't think losing them to a competitor at this stage would hurt RBR as much as losing Verstappen would.

Whilst any potential driver/design leanings will also be prevalent in next year's car I think Albon will benefit hugely from not only having a preseason with the team but also having recently reached double-digits in terms of GP starts and gained experience on all the tracks. Verstappen has just finished his 100th GP and I think it's clear that he's improved as a driver in that time.

etusch
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by etusch » Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:38 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:51 pm

I think that part of the reason Verstappen is so far ahead is that the car has been built around his preferences, and those preferences may not gel with other drivers.
Verstappen talked about that in an interview. He said he is the one giving feed back about car for development because of other one is rokie who is still learning. So car has been built around Verstappen preferences but it was not team's choice but there was not option.

Marti_EF3
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by Marti_EF3 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:11 pm

Really really happy for Alex. He deserves it. I'm sure next year he will surprise many, and even the conspiracy followers will have to eat his words. Pre-season can't come soon enough 8)

SF Engineer
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by SF Engineer » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:47 pm

[/quote]

this post is undoubtfully, most likely the biggest runaround to say "Albon was better then Gasly, and both are happy where they are now" 😂😂😉
but it is F*cking great

and especcially that bold marked line should be hanging out in every topic (yeah i know i am guilty aswell), and its a good addition to my line in my signature and if SF Engineer allows i wanna use it in my signature ....... so Mods do something with this line
[/quote]

Go for it mate :wink:
Wynters wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 6:06 pm
SF Engineer wrote:
Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:14 pm
Therefore I don’t believe my argument that prioritizing on track performance above all else is flawed in any late way, as it is also appears to be the best way for teams to ensure positive financial impact).
I think I agree with all the points you make. The only things I would add are that sometimes (rarely) prioritising performance on track will yield no difference in WCC standing (e.g. RBR at the moment). However, any prospective gains/losses are clearly measurable in the WDC. As you point out, marketing benefits are substantially harder to accurately predict and verify which would make investment on track a more certain approach.
Agreed, I think we share a very similar opinion on this topic.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by NL_Fer » Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:48 am

No surprise here. Albon performs much better than Gasly at RBR. Close enough to Verstappen.

Surprisingly Gasly is performing at least as good as Albon at STR, maybe even better. (And better than Kvyat...)

Win-win I suppose.

restless
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by restless » Wed Nov 13, 2019 7:42 am

NL_Fer wrote:
Wed Nov 13, 2019 12:48 am
Surprisingly Gasly is performing at least as good as Albon at STR, maybe even better. (And better than Kvyat...)
Agree with first part and disagree with second. Yes, Gasly looks better in TR. But while in qualy they are +-equal with Kvyat (taking in account engine penalties and external events), in race he looks ... bland?
Kvyat is the one that races better - more aggression, more overtaking, even though he got more pit problems - in fact last 2 races when he was penalized for overtaking in last turn, he'd finished comfortably in the points without risky overtaking if not for bothed pitstops when he lost positions to Hulk & Peres

PS: Sorry, just realized thats RB topic, not TR :/

KelsO
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by KelsO » Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:44 am

Ferrari shelling continues
TD 35/19 was followed four days before the GP Brazil TD 38/19. This time, it is important that no flammable liquid from the intercooler, the air collector or the ERS system is allowed to enter the combustion chambers.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... tor-trick/

loner
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

Post by loner » Thu Nov 14, 2019 3:58 pm

Fernando Alonso says that Max Verstappen has been his choice for the best driver in Formula 1 this year thanks to his "attack mode" attitude.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alon ... e/4596664/
para bellum.