2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Maplesoup
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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lio007 wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:10 pm
Hm...do you think cloud computing would be unlimited? CFD time / computation is restricted by the regulations. But is it only the team's own supercomputer capacity what's restricted?
What would happen if they have something like "mining bit coins" (or mining CFD- this-and-that ;-) ) from the community.
CFD is limited by the amount of data produced/processed.

There would be no performance advantage using cloud computing plus the CFD systems are set up in very specific way to get the most out of what the regulations allow with the software and hardware that they use. This would be difficult to duplicate in the cloud and would probably end up being a dedicated server setup.

lio007
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Maplesoup wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:29 pm
lio007 wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:10 pm
Hm...do you think cloud computing would be unlimited? CFD time / computation is restricted by the regulations. But is it only the team's own supercomputer capacity what's restricted?
What would happen if they have something like "mining bit coins" (or mining CFD- this-and-that ;-) ) from the community.
CFD is limited by the amount of data produced/processed.

There would be no performance advantage using cloud computing plus the CFD systems are set up in very specific way to get the most out of what the regulations allow with the software and hardware that they use. This would be difficult to duplicate in the cloud and would probably end up being a dedicated server setup.
A limitation I never understood...why shouldn't teams be allowed to use more CFD for their development?
Or do the big teams have so much better models, representing real world behaviour more precisely?
I think the effort from the teams is now a lot bigger to deal with the limitation and trying to get out as much as possible.

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Capharol
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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lio007 wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:02 pm
Maplesoup wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:29 pm
lio007 wrote:
Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:10 pm
Hm...do you think cloud computing would be unlimited? CFD time / computation is restricted by the regulations. But is it only the team's own supercomputer capacity what's restricted?
What would happen if they have something like "mining bit coins" (or mining CFD- this-and-that ;-) ) from the community.
CFD is limited by the amount of data produced/processed.

There would be no performance advantage using cloud computing plus the CFD systems are set up in very specific way to get the most out of what the regulations allow with the software and hardware that they use. This would be difficult to duplicate in the cloud and would probably end up being a dedicated server setup.
A limitation I never understood...why shouldn't teams be allowed to use more CFD for their development?
Or do the big teams have so much better models, representing real world behaviour more precisely?
I think the effort from the teams is now a lot bigger to deal with the limitation and trying to get out as much as possible.
first of all they limited CFD because of $$$$$$$
and 2nd yes the bigger teams have better tools then others so they get more and better data
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

lio007
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Capharol wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:26 am
lio007 wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:02 pm
Maplesoup wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:29 pm


CFD is limited by the amount of data produced/processed.

There would be no performance advantage using cloud computing plus the CFD systems are set up in very specific way to get the most out of what the regulations allow with the software and hardware that they use. This would be difficult to duplicate in the cloud and would probably end up being a dedicated server setup.
A limitation I never understood...why shouldn't teams be allowed to use more CFD for their development?
Or do the big teams have so much better models, representing real world behaviour more precisely?
I think the effort from the teams is now a lot bigger to deal with the limitation and trying to get out as much as possible.
first of all they limited CFD because of $$$$$$$
and 2nd yes the bigger teams have better tools then others so they get more and better data
But is CFD not better (in terms of $$$$$) compared to the wind tunnel?

BTW, can CFD be flawed as well as the wind tunnel? We often hear correlation issues between track and tunnel (e.g. in 2017 RBR had problems), but at the moment I can't remember reports of CFD-correlation issues. Or is it always the kind of "one without the other"?

Maplesoup
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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lio007 wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:57 am

But is CFD not better (in terms of $$$$$) compared to the wind tunnel?

BTW, can CFD be flawed as well as the wind tunnel? We often hear correlation issues between track and tunnel (e.g. in 2017 RBR had problems), but at the moment I can't remember reports of CFD-correlation issues. Or is it always the kind of "one without the other"?
CFD by its very nature is flawed because it's only an approximation of the real world conditions. Teams don't even use the best CFD algorithms I believe because it means they can't run as many simulations.

CFD software is hugely expensive and having the latest CAD and CFD tools can easily set a team back tens of millions.

Wind tunnel is then used to correlate what they see in CFD to real air flow which should in turn apply to the real world conditions (this isn't always the case as we've seen in recent years). So it's possible that the windtunnel correlates well with CFD but not to the real world.

CFD is limited because there literally isn't an upper limit to how much a team could spend on it. The top teams can already generate data about twice as quickly as the smaller teams, if there was no limit then it would just be an arm's race for compute power.

lio007
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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I'm afraid we have to put this to an end here, because it's going offtopic too much, although there's still a lot of interesting stuff left to be discussed.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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lio007 wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:57 am
Capharol wrote:
Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:26 am
lio007 wrote:
Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:02 pm

A limitation I never understood...why shouldn't teams be allowed to use more CFD for their development?
Or do the big teams have so much better models, representing real world behaviour more precisely?
I think the effort from the teams is now a lot bigger to deal with the limitation and trying to get out as much as possible.
first of all they limited CFD because of $$$$$$$
and 2nd yes the bigger teams have better tools then others so they get more and better data
But is CFD not better (in terms of $$$$$) compared to the wind tunnel?

BTW, can CFD be flawed as well as the wind tunnel? We often hear correlation issues between track and tunnel (e.g. in 2017 RBR had problems), but at the moment I can't remember reports of CFD-correlation issues. Or is it always the kind of "one without the other"?
Correlation issues means we buggered up and went the wrong direction. The wind tunnel and CFD are tools, lab tools, they can help, but they are approximations at best. The real world behaves in a particular way, we try to model that behavior, and our models are built with underlying assumptions about that behavior.

We don't need to have the correct assumptions to accurately model behavior at a certain scale. Our models simply need to be close or match experimental results. Here's the issue, our assumptions may model 90% of behavior accurately at a certain scale but my only be 40% at another scale. How do you reconcile your assumptions so that you can model behavior equally at both scales?

It's figuring out and getting all these different models to work together that's challenging. Mistakes are euphemistically called correlation issues.
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

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Wouter
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/27/the ... -part-one/ team places 6-10.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/01/02/the ... ams-spent/ team places 1-5.

The cost of F1 2019 part two: What the top teams spent.

The team says

It’s been a tough year with the calendar that’s been [long], but it’s also been a productive year, embracing a new technical partner in Honda which has laid the foundation for a solid future. We’ve seen a [budget] increase dictated by the regulation changes and the inflationary costs that go with it.
Image
Last edited by Wouter on Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lio007
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:42 pm
https://www.racefans.net/2019/12/27/the ... -part-one/ team places 6-10.

https://www.racefans.net/2020/01/02/the ... ams-spent/ team places 1-5.

The cost of F1 2019 part two: What the top teams spent.

The team says:

We hit our numbers this year on our sponsor projections. We anticipate hitting them again next year. The car is gradually filling up, some great companies, but definitely we’ll have some great partners for next year, and everyone we have is staying.
https://www.racefans.net/wp-content/upl ... d-bull.jpg
Hi Wouter,
your quote is not from Red Bull but McLaren!

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Wouter
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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lio007 wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 5:37 pm
Hi Wouter,
your quote is not from Red Bull but McLaren!
Stupid me! Image

lio007
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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for reference: 2018
Image

GhostF1
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Wouter
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Capharol
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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i was expecting this contract extension but not the lenght of it ....
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

loekf2
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Re: 2019 Aston Martin Red Bull Racing - Honda F1 Team

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Capharol wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:24 pm
i was expecting this contract extension but not the lenght of it ....
Honda will extend beyond 2021 as well, but different terms I think. Bigger stake, more exposure etc.