2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

[GPR-A]

I find it a bit strange that now Bottas had a few bad drives, he is being writen off so easily.

AusGP: 1st
Bah: 2nd
Chin: 2nd
Aze: 1st
Spain: 2nd
Monaco: 3rd
France: 2nd
Austria: 3rd
England: 2nd

only Germany and Hungary were bad, and in Germany the whole Mercedes team was bad, so i don't understand why ppl suddenly saying he isn't good enough

I don't think the debate is about him being good enough. It's about the future of Mercedes team, beyond Lewis. Bottas, while good, is not good enough to fight with the likes of Max, Leclerc and Ricciardo (if and when he gets the equipment) in a straight fight. He doesn't produce those unbelievable pole lap out of nowhere and fades away on race pace. Simply put, he is no Tier 1 driver who can be the next leader of the pack when Lewis departs. So, the search is for that next Alpha and for that, it's good to take all the risks now, before Lewis departs.

Mercedes can't be putting all their eggs in Verstappen basket and wait for him to sign the deal. If RB-Honda starts improving and if they can provide a good "lay of the land" plan of 2021 car to Max and convince him to stay, he might as well stay put. Where would that leave Mercedes? So, it's time to take those tough decisions to prepare for a future, without getting caught off guard with any surprising developments of the future.

[Capharol]

Well in my opinion Ocon ain't much better as Bottas is.... but that isn't my concern

[Bill_Kar]

I find it a bit strange that now Bottas had a few bad drives, he is being writen off so easily.

AusGP: 1st
Bah: 2nd
Chin: 2nd
Aze: 1st
Spain: 2nd
Monaco: 3rd
France: 2nd
Austria: 3rd
England: 2nd

only Germany and Hungary were bad, and in Germany the whole Mercedes team was bad, so i don't understand why ppl suddenly saying he isn't good enough

There are a lot of ways to read into one's performance.

Although you are not wrong, I think it's not the right way to rate him.

Most of these GPs, Mercedes were on another planet. Just look at HAM performance in Spain, China, France, UK. He demolished the whole field. So it's not that flattering that he just finished behind HAM in most of the races.

But now look Bottas' performance at the two places where another team was pacey. Bahrain: He was in no man's land, finished behind Ferrari. Canada? Finished behind Ferrari. Those were races that HAM was into play, he fought with Ferrari. Bottas was sailing along in the track.

So the question is, now that RB are up to pace, can he fight with Verstappen? My gut says no, but we are about to see in the second phase. That also raises the question: If RB are competitive next year from Australia & with a solid n.2 driver, do you trust him to hand you the WCC?

If Mercedes go with Ocon, I think it's because the answer is "no".

That's just my take on the whole thing.

[Capharol]

I find it a bit strange that now Bottas had a few bad drives, he is being writen off so easily.

AusGP: 1st
Bah: 2nd
Chin: 2nd
Aze: 1st
Spain: 2nd
Monaco: 3rd
France: 2nd
Austria: 3rd
England: 2nd

only Germany and Hungary were bad, and in Germany the whole Mercedes team was bad, so i don't understand why ppl suddenly saying he isn't good enough

There are a lot of ways to read into one's performance.

Although you are not wrong, I think it's not the right way to rate him.

Most of these GPs, Mercedes were on another planet. Just look at HAM performance in Spain, China, France, UK. He demolished the whole field. So it's not that flattering that he just finished behind HAM in most of the races.

But now look Bottas' performance at the two places where another team was pacey. Bahrain: He was in no man's land, finished behind Ferrari. Canada? Finished behind Ferrari. Those were races that HAM was into play, he fought with Ferrari. Bottas was sailing along in the track.

So the question is, now that RB are up to pace, can he fight with Verstappen? My gut says no, but we are about to see in the second phase. That also raises the question: If RB are competitive next year from Australia & with a solid n.2 driver, do you trust him to hand you the WCC?

If Mercedes go with Ocon, I think it's because the answer is "no".

That's just my take on the whole thing.

this was an answer i can work with, and thank you for the way you see it. (gave you a positive)
of course it's not all black and white, you have to consider how the races went, but then my question will be.... you think Ocon can do better, I from my side don't think so.
Forgett about F3 or the races Ocon had in F1 because starting a new season means the driver (normally any driver) has learned from last year.
Now Ocon missed a year in F1 (and don't come to me with he drove in Sim, because that is still completly different IMHO)
can Ocon adapt soon enough to the new F1 ....

[erudite450]

Bottas, while good, is not good enough to fight with the likes of Max, Leclerc and Ricciardo (if and when he gets the equipment) in a straight fight.

Bottas beat Ricciardo to the 2008 Formula Renault 2.0 Eurocup (equal machinery). While Bottas isn't an A-lister, Ricciardo shouldn't be on that list either.

[Webber2011]

Bottas, while good, is not good enough to fight with the likes of Max, Leclerc and Ricciardo (if and when he gets the equipment) in a straight fight.

Bottas beat Ricciardo to the 2008 Formula Renault 2.0 Eurocup (equal machinery). While Bottas isn't an A-lister, Ricciardo shouldn't be on that list either.

2008

Come on man, 2008 was a hell of a long time ago.
I'd find it very hard to judge anyone on the grid, on what they did 11 years ago.

[erudite450]

Bottas, while good, is not good enough to fight with the likes of Max, Leclerc and Ricciardo (if and when he gets the equipment) in a straight fight.

Bottas beat Ricciardo to the 2008 Formula Renault 2.0 Eurocup (equal machinery). While Bottas isn't an A-lister, Ricciardo shouldn't be on that list either.

2008

Come on man, 2008 was a hell of a long time ago.
I'd find it very hard to judge anyone on the grid, on what they did 11 years ago.

I absolutely agree with you and Ricciardo might well be a better driver than Bottas now.
However, my point is that you couldn't make that argument as there is no evidence to support it. We have to wait for Ricciardo to be paired with Bottas or Hamilton to draw conclusions on how good Ricciardo really is. People tend to underestimate how difficult it is to be Hamilton's teammate.

[Espresso]

Ocon has already shown his dark side in Spa, Baku and especially Brazil (I still think that was on purpose due to the history between VER and OCO)

Perez put Ocon into the wall in Spa, twice (not the last time he puts Ocon into a wall, either). Ocon was 100% at fault in Baku, you don't try and kiss the apex with a car alongside you on the inside, but he was never getting out of the crash intact so I'm not sure you can put it down as 'dark side', 'stupid side', perhaps. As for Brazil, see my comment in the previous sentence. Verstappen had unlapped himself in a previous race and scored points, setting the precedent that you never know what might happen in a race so why give up (K-Mag repeated that philosophy in his post-race interview with Will Buxton this weekend). As to him doing it on purpose, surely he wouldn't have tried to make the corner if he was doing it on purpose? You can see Max in the following Bahrain GP just open his steering so he can bang Ocon on his way past (RoGro/K-Mag style), a move I believe Verstappen admitted was deliberate, to see how it would be done. Or Perez crashing into Sirotkin in Singapore. Or Vettel into Hamilton at Baku to see what a deliberate impact looks like.

I know the Brazil incident really annoys a section of the F1 fan base, but to cast all those incidents as his fault and that one as deliberate is a difficult position to support.

The ontrack would have been on debate. But not anymore with the aftermath included.

Well the dark side of Ocon showed off clearly in front of the camera in the 'garage' where Max gave him a light 'shove'. Look at his body language, the use of words and the grinning. Sorry but this shows a person doing something deliberate (nothing to loose) and then afterwards rubbing it in extra hard.

I have a hunch his intention was to overtake Max and irritate him and get him loose time so his pursuers got more near... and in the worst case...he'd crash him out.

What follows in the races after that is a result of someones action. You can see fights on track with pilots respecting each other. But there are bumper car actions on track. With the most obvious example the Haas pilots...

And as things comes around....justice hit him back loosing his Renault seat.

To put it under a magnifying glass:
(As in reality these character trades are tiny difference)
Hamilton is a thinker. Taking calculating risk to achieve his goal.
Bottas is a doubter. Avoiding risks as much as possible.

[digitalrurouni]

I don't think Ocon has shown anything that merits him the Mercedes seat. Bottas has been a solid performer but he has been a bit inconsistent of recent that much is true. I am hoping he will come back as Bottas 3.0 after the summer break. I definitely think putting Ocon in the Mercedes seat is a bad move. I can see Ocon being put in to a 'junior' Merc team but of course such a team does not exist. Perhaps Sport Pesa would have been an option if Lance Stroll hadn't bought the team out.

[Big Tea]

If you are going to come home second behind your team mate (or 3rd with team mate second) there is no point caning your car to be closer, the points are the same.
It could be a conscious decision to do 'just enough'. Prost did this and got lauded for it.

[Morteza]

[Wynters]

The ontrack would have been on debate. But not anymore with the aftermath included.

Well the dark side of Ocon showed off clearly in front of the camera in the 'garage' where Max gave him a light 'shove'. Look at his body language, the use of words and the grinning. Sorry but this shows a person doing something deliberate (nothing to loose) and then afterwards rubbing it in extra hard.

Why have you put 'shove' in inverted commas?
As the camera was too far away to pick up audio, perhaps you could share the, until now, secret transcript of what was said?

To be clear, do you think the person who behaved worst afterwards wasn't the one who sought out, then initiated, and then reinitiated, a physical confrontation and then, at the next grand prix, initiated car contact and admitted it was deliberate afterwards?

I have a hunch his intention was to overtake Max and irritate him and get him loose time so his pursuers got more near... and in the worst case...he'd crash him out.

A hunch? Well, in that case, I'm convinced. This sidetrack from the main thread can (and should) stop right here. If you want to take it further please PM me.

[f1jcw]

Ocon has already shown his dark side in Spa, Baku and especially Brazil (I still think that was on purpose due to the history between VER and OCO)

Perez put Ocon into the wall in Spa, twice (not the last time he puts Ocon into a wall, either). Ocon was 100% at fault in Baku, you don't try and kiss the apex with a car alongside you on the inside, but he was never getting out of the crash intact so I'm not sure you can put it down as 'dark side', 'stupid side', perhaps. As for Brazil, see my comment in the previous sentence. Verstappen had unlapped himself in a previous race and scored points, setting the precedent that you never know what might happen in a race so why give up (K-Mag repeated that philosophy in his post-race interview with Will Buxton this weekend). As to him doing it on purpose, surely he wouldn't have tried to make the corner if he was doing it on purpose? You can see Max in the following Bahrain GP just open his steering so he can bang Ocon on his way past (RoGro/K-Mag style), a move I believe Verstappen admitted was deliberate, to see how it would be done. Or Perez crashing into Sirotkin in Singapore. Or Vettel into Hamilton at Baku to see what a deliberate impact looks like.

I know the Brazil incident really annoys a section of the F1 fan base, but to cast all those incidents as his fault and that one as deliberate is a difficult position to support.

The ontrack would have been on debate. But not anymore with the aftermath included.

Well the dark side of Ocon showed off clearly in front of the camera in the 'garage' where Max gave him a light 'shove'. Look at his body language, the use of words and the grinning. Sorry but this shows a person doing something deliberate (nothing to loose) and then afterwards rubbing it in extra hard.

I have a hunch his intention was to overtake Max and irritate him and get him loose time so his pursuers got more near... and in the worst case...he'd crash him out.

What follows in the races after that is a result of someones action. You can see fights on track with pilots respecting each other. But there are bumper car actions on track. With the most obvious example the Haas pilots...

And as things comes around....justice hit him back loosing his Renault seat.

To put it under a magnifying glass:
(As in reality these character trades are tiny difference)
Hamilton is a thinker. Taking calculating risk to achieve his goal.
Bottas is a doubter. Avoiding risks as much as possible.

No, I believe Max came off worse in the garage, Ocon did the right thing, laugh and smile at a twit making a complete fool of himself, trying to push his way around.

[ringo]

I think we are overreacting when it comes to Bottas. He is doing more than expected as a mercedes driver. The man is fast over a lap, and has consistent podiums. I don't see why we are pushing to have two elite drivers in the team.
Bottas is more than enough to win a constructors championship, and i bet that he will finish second in the championship this year. To me is should stay in the team.
When Mercedes need another driver after Lewis is gone, which is a long long time from now, they can simply advertise the post and top drivers will come. It's that simple.

What the team need to do is to improve the car. In Hungary from Max's wing camera you can see that the Mercedes of Lewis was very twitchy on the front end as the car exited the corners. Hamilton is driving around the weaknesses of the Mercedes car and making it look like its flawless, but it's not a very balanced chassis as Germany has shown. It is very edgy and needs further improvement. When they do make the car more stable we will be seeing a Bottas that will win races or get 1-2 finishes for the team.
The car is fast but unrefined. Hamilton is balancing it on the edge to get the speed and tyre life out of it. Bottas is able to set it up for one lap and deal with that balance, but in a race where the car is constantly changing throughout the lap we see where Valteri is not coping well. Reminds me of silverstone with Hamilton and Button back in 2010 or 2011? where there was a blown diffusor upgrade that made the mclaren faster. Hamilton was able to manage it but Button deemed it undrivable and the team chose not to run that upgrade.
So what mercedes need to do is keep Bottas and develop the twitchy behavior out of the W10.

[digitalrurouni]

I think we are overreacting when it comes to Bottas. He is doing more than expected as a mercedes driver. The man is fast over a lap, and has consistent podiums. I don't see why we are pushing to have two elite drivers in the team.
Bottas is more than enough to win a constructors championship, and i bet that he will finish second in the championship this year. To me is should stay in the team.
When Mercedes need another driver after Lewis is gone, which is a long long time from now, they can simply advertise the post and top drivers will come. It's that simple.

What the team need to do is to improve the car. In Hungary from Max's wing camera you can see that the Mercedes of Lewis was very twitchy on the front end as the car exited the corners. Hamilton is driving around the weaknesses of the Mercedes car and making it look like its flawless, but it's not a very balanced chassis as Germany has shown. It is very edgy and needs further improvement. When they do make the car more stable we will be seeing a Bottas that will win races or get 1-2 finishes for the team.
The car is fast but unrefined. Hamilton is balancing it on the edge to get the speed and tyre life out of it. Bottas is able to set it up for one lap and deal with that balance, but in a race where the car is constantly changing throughout the lap we see where Valteri is not coping well. Reminds me of silverstone with Hamilton and Button back in 2010 or 2011? where there was a blown diffusor upgrade that made the mclaren faster. Hamilton was able to manage it but Button deemed it undrivable and the team chose not to run that upgrade.
So what mercedes need to do is keep Bottas and develop the twitchy behavior out of the W10.

This. I think Bottas has done more than enough to keep his seat. He needs to gain a bit more consistency though. Ok fine he's not beating Lewis but he also needs to get himself in a position in the race where he's not compromised or in trouble. Make a little bit of his own positive luck I suppose. Hopefully after the summer break we get a refreshed Bottas.

He does need to pick up his race pace though. I'm not sure what it is about the cars this year but not a lot of races have been won from pole. I know pole is important of course but somehow this season not as crucial ads it was in the prior seasons.