2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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Jambier
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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GPR -A wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 3:36 pm
Jambier wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 2:01 pm
What about Mercedes F1 team then ?
End in 2020 ?
How does that make sense? The very reason they divested stakes in McLaren, was the for the fact that, for the amount of money they were investing in McLaren, they could run their own team, which would bring far bigger advertisement for the Mercedes brand. They have successfully achieved it and they are at break even with their investment in the race team! They are essentially getting all the advertisement for their brand, without almost spending a penny.

If they have to go back to McLaren, they would again have to shell out a hell lot of money! Today, all of their success is their own ALONE. If they go back to old model, they would only get flak when the PU fails, but all the praise will go to McLaren brand. It's absolutely brainless thing to do.

Because:

- Next thing in F1 for Mercedes ? : lose. The cycle will end one day, and they will begin to lose.
- Budget cap is a big issue. They will have to fire quite a lot of people
- Formula E program is starting
- We know the struggle that german brand have with eco image
- For 2021 they have to start everything again if they want to dominate the future cycle
- They have won so much... winning again in 2021 will just hurt their image, it will not bring positive things

On the other side:

- Leaving 2020 in full glory, with 7 title in a row!
- With Hamilton on 7th title
- Not being there in 2021 allow them to put all the money to ensure this 2020 victory
- This will be better to leave in glory rather than beaten by competitors
- Not having to fire people with budget cap
- And maintaining a presence in F1 with AMG engines.

Engines will be the same on 2021, we even speak of freeze. Having 3 customers is not that expensive to keep an engine program

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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Jambier wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:38 pm
Because:

- Next thing in F1 for Mercedes ? : lose. The cycle will end one day, and they will begin to lose.
Imagine if that is what Ferrari would have been thinking in the past 60 years.

Renault, who are in F1 for such a long time and have had brief spells of success, but yet continue in F1 due to the enarmous branding exposure that F1 offers. Even small players like Aston Martin have invested in F1 to benefit from the advertisement.

Even if Mercedes has to spend, to a tune of 100 million dollars on F1 team due to reduction in prize money due to not winning and reduction in sponsorship income, it would still be worth for the branding and advertisement. Nobody can sustain success forever, but for as long as it remains worth the investment, there is a benefit of continuing.
Jambier wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:38 pm
- Budget cap is a big issue. They will have to fire quite a lot of people
There are enough loopholes in the budget cap which is enough to manage their people. Engine division doesn't come under the ambit of budget cap. It wouldn't be too difficult to move people under the Mercedes HPP umbrella for financial purposes and retain them working for race team! Red Bull has Red Bull Technology which is outside of Race Team and McLaren has technology division, which is outside of Race Team! They are structured to outsmart these resource restrictions.
Jambier wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:38 pm
- Formula E program is starting
It's a miniature series without any serious racing credentials. Until FE becomes big enough to rival F1, there is no reason to stop investing in F1.
Jambier wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:38 pm
- We know the struggle that german brand have with eco image
That problem is for every other auto manufacturer and not unique to Mercedes alone!
Jambier wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:38 pm
- For 2021 they have to start everything again if they want to dominate the future cycle
Every few years regulations change and 2021 is nothing different. Since the beginning of the year, they were insisting on sealing the regulations, but Red Bull and Ferrari have been delaying it as Mercedes has the potential to get a head start due to their current advantage.
Jambier wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:38 pm
- They have won so much... winning again in 2021 will just hurt their image, it will not bring positive things
In a practical business world, a fan sensibility doesn't count. Winning will ONLY build the image in the auto world. That is the GREATEST thing that counts in the market place. It's as simple as that.


On the other side:
Jambier wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:38 pm
- Leaving 2020 in full glory, with 7 title in a row!
- With Hamilton on 7th title
- Not being there in 2021 allow them to put all the money to ensure this 2020 victory
- This will be better to leave in glory rather than beaten by competitors
- Not having to fire people with budget cap
- And maintaining a presence in F1 with AMG engines.

Engines will be the same on 2021, we even speak of freeze. Having 3 customers is not that expensive to keep an engine program
Not to disappoint you, but the new Mercedes chairman has already committed to F1 till 2025. So that cancels out any argument of them pulling out. Plus, they would now get more bargaining power on the Liberty table with their championship stature, which would rival with the Ferrari Veto power.

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rscsr
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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GPR -A wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 5:30 pm
...
Jambier wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:38 pm
- Leaving 2020 in full glory, with 7 title in a row!
- With Hamilton on 7th title
- Not being there in 2021 allow them to put all the money to ensure this 2020 victory
- This will be better to leave in glory rather than beaten by competitors
- Not having to fire people with budget cap
- And maintaining a presence in F1 with AMG engines.

Engines will be the same on 2021, we even speak of freeze. Having 3 customers is not that expensive to keep an engine program
Not to disappoint you, but the new Mercedes chairman has already committed to F1 till 2025. So that cancels out any argument of them pulling out. Plus, they would now get more bargaining power on the Liberty table with their championship stature, which would rival with the Ferrari Veto power.
Although I don't believe that Mercedes is going to stop soon, it wouldn't be the first time a manufacturer doesn't fullfill what they agreed to. Especially since they just have been penalized to 860 Mio. €.

Jolle
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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So, if Hamilton wins in Suzuka, he will be more than 104 points ahead of the best other brand car, making Mercedes having another world champion. six years in a row.

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GPR-A
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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Does anyone else think the W10 has become slower with their German GP package? It seems like that package has added more drag, but hasn't significantly enhanced the cornering performance. They are also struggling to set it up fluently like it used to be in the early part. Up until then Bottas was flying and with the introduction of German GP package, he is almost nowhere! Drivers like Bottas and Kimis perform well when the car is in the right zone and when it is not, they fade away.

Their pace deficit on straight line compared to Ferrari, I guess has more to do with Mercedes carrying lot more drag for what it is worth in terms of downforce. In Sochi, they were slower than Red Bull on straight line on one lap pace! Their race pace is more lively when the compounds get harder, which is primarily due to the level of downforce they have compared to others that works the tyres harder, but equally, the drag penalty is punishing in one lap pace. May be I am wrong, but that's how it feels, especially considering Bottas as a reference.

Jozsusz
Jozsusz
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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GPR -A wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:46 pm
Does anyone else think the W10 has become slower with their German GP package? It seems like that package has added more drag, but hasn't significantly enhanced the cornering performance. They are also struggling to set it up fluently like it used to be in the early part. Up until then Bottas was flying and with the introduction of German GP package, he is almost nowhere! Drivers like Bottas and Kimis perform well when the car is in the right zone and when it is not, they fade away.

Their pace deficit on straight line compared to Ferrari, I guess has more to do with Mercedes carrying lot more drag for what it is worth in terms of downforce. In Sochi, they were slower than Red Bull on straight line on one lap pace! Their race pace is more lively when the compounds get harder, which is primarily due to the level of downforce they have compared to others that works the tyres harder, but equally, the drag penalty is punishing in one lap pace. May be I am wrong, but that's how it feels, especially considering Bottas as a reference.
It's not slower, actually the car didn't have that big disadvantage in Monza or in Spa. Lew could have won Spa easily with better tacticts and also Singapore was very much winnable. Only Monza was out of the question due to Ferrari's straight line speed. The thing is that Merc have stopped developing this car because why? They can concentrate on the next years car.

Jolle
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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Jozsusz wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 8:36 pm
GPR -A wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:46 pm
Does anyone else think the W10 has become slower with their German GP package? It seems like that package has added more drag, but hasn't significantly enhanced the cornering performance. They are also struggling to set it up fluently like it used to be in the early part. Up until then Bottas was flying and with the introduction of German GP package, he is almost nowhere! Drivers like Bottas and Kimis perform well when the car is in the right zone and when it is not, they fade away.

Their pace deficit on straight line compared to Ferrari, I guess has more to do with Mercedes carrying lot more drag for what it is worth in terms of downforce. In Sochi, they were slower than Red Bull on straight line on one lap pace! Their race pace is more lively when the compounds get harder, which is primarily due to the level of downforce they have compared to others that works the tyres harder, but equally, the drag penalty is punishing in one lap pace. May be I am wrong, but that's how it feels, especially considering Bottas as a reference.
It's not slower, actually the car didn't have that big disadvantage in Monza or in Spa. Lew could have won Spa easily with better tacticts and also Singapore was very much winnable. Only Monza was out of the question due to Ferrari's straight line speed. The thing is that Merc have stopped developing this car because why? They can concentrate on the next years car.
Don't think any team stoped development, the 2020 cars will be a direct evolution of this years car with the big rule change coming for 2021. It's more that Ferrari finally got their car working, after the good first week of winter testing. At one point in the season Ferrari even fell behind RedBull, with the gap between Mercedes and RedBull looking pretty steady.

zibby43
zibby43
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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GPR -A wrote:
Sun Sep 29, 2019 4:46 pm
Does anyone else think the W10 has become slower with their German GP package? It seems like that package has added more drag, but hasn't significantly enhanced the cornering performance. They are also struggling to set it up fluently like it used to be in the early part. Up until then Bottas was flying and with the introduction of German GP package, he is almost nowhere! Drivers like Bottas and Kimis perform well when the car is in the right zone and when it is not, they fade away.

Their pace deficit on straight line compared to Ferrari, I guess has more to do with Mercedes carrying lot more drag for what it is worth in terms of downforce. In Sochi, they were slower than Red Bull on straight line on one lap pace! Their race pace is more lively when the compounds get harder, which is primarily due to the level of downforce they have compared to others that works the tyres harder, but equally, the drag penalty is punishing in one lap pace. May be I am wrong, but that's how it feels, especially considering Bottas as a reference.
Merc is pretty darn good at correlation and they were very adamant that the upgrade delivered the downforce points they were expecting. I thought they finally got on top of the package in Spa and Monza. They were seriously quick there, on Ferrari's turf (nabbed 4 out of the 6 podium positions and with one more lap at Spa and no "warning" for LEC at Monza, Hamilton would've won both).

Singapore was kind of a bizarre aberration (kind of like how Merc bagged pole there last year), but Merc have struggled there historically.

Red Bull have been struggling a bit relative to both Mercedes and Ferrari lately. Red Bull didn't have much race pace in Sochi (and that is usually their strong point). I thought Merc's race pace in Sochi was very solid, and in the post-race Paddock Pass, LEC suggested that Merc had better race pace.

4 things have happened for sure:

1) Ferrari have dumped tons of money and resources into their Singapore upgrades, and they definitely delivered a few tenths, but more importantly, the Ferrari is much easier to set up; they can get the tires working over a single lap now (which has been the goal with this car all season: to be a monster qualifier and then control the pace at the front)

2) Ferrari have had time to better understand the tires.

3) Merc have introduced virtually no upgrades since Germany (that is very, very unlike them; they're usually constantly bringing incremental gains between big packages).

4) Merc introduced the first component to their new front suspension (the remainder of which will be brought in Suzuka, along with Merc's final upgrade push of the season). I don't think they were able to get on top of it and Singapore, and I think they ended up getting surprised by Ferrari's pace there.

Thoughts?

e30ernest
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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The conspiracy theory in me thinks that Merc is withholding updates. Next year is an evolution so I wonder if they are potentially hiding updates that could apply for next year's car so that the competition will have less time to copy them. You are right that it is so unlike Merc to not introduce upgrades for these many races in a row. Something is either wrong, or they are playing for the longer run.

zibby43
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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e30ernest wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:44 am
The conspiracy theory in me thinks that Merc is withholding updates. Next year is an evolution so I wonder if they are potentially hiding updates that could apply for next year's car so that the competition will have less time to copy them. You are right that it is so unlike Merc to not introduce upgrades for these many races in a row. Something is either wrong, or they are playing for the longer run.
Toto has confirmed an update package for Suzuka (traditionally, Merc have brought a fairly sizeable package there).

Seems like they feel they haven't extracted the potential from the car the past 2 races, which matches the eye test, especially since they were incredible at both Spa and Monza.

"We have some updates to come in Suzuka, but most of all we need to put our heads together over the coming days and understand how to maximise our package in Japan, so that we extract every bit of potential from it and come back stronger."

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SiLo
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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e30ernest wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:44 am
The conspiracy theory in me thinks that Merc is withholding updates. Next year is an evolution so I wonder if they are potentially hiding updates that could apply for next year's car so that the competition will have less time to copy them. You are right that it is so unlike Merc to not introduce upgrades for these many races in a row. Something is either wrong, or they are playing for the longer run.
I guess they can keep working on the updates to ensure they rather than rushing them to the car.
Felipe Baby!

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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Jambier wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 4:38 pm

- Next thing in F1 for Mercedes ? : lose. The cycle will end one day, and they will begin to lose.
Not really, you're forgetting that Mercedes was an engine supplier in the 90's for Mclaren and that got them titles and every time a WDC and WCC fight. Mercedes will be there, perhaps their dominance will tone down but then they can show they can fight back under competition too and use that again for their exposure benefit.
- Budget cap is a big issue. They will have to fire quite a lot of people
- Formula E program is starting
LOL, you just answered your own point :lol:

People they have to 'let off' from the F1 program will go straight to Formula E.
It has been mentioned that goes for all the teams, not just for Mercedes.
Addittionally, there is going to be a new team in 2021 'Panthera' and i'm sure they can use
qualified personnel. So If people need to leave, then i can see Mercedes staff going to other
top teams and other teams like Renault and Mclaren to see the people that go from there
towards the new Panthera team and the remainder of them as mentioned go to Formula E.
Net result is really just minor 'lay offs'.
- We know the struggle that german brand have with eco image
what? how and where? they haven't got a struggle with ECO image at all :wtf:
- For 2021 they have to start everything again if they want to dominate the future cycle
as does EVERY TEAM
- They have won so much... winning again in 2021 will just hurt their image, it will not bring positive things
No it won't, it will just show that nothing is too much for them. #-o
On the other side:

- Leaving 2020 in full glory, with 7 title in a row!
Look at how much respect Rosberg got for leaving immediately after getting a title. #-o
They'll get critized immensely, if anything, THAT will hurt their image.
- With Hamilton on 7th title
Great for Hamilton, not doing overly much for Mercedes.
One might argue they prefer Bottas getting a title as they can then boast more that it's MERCEDES
that got the title and their success wasn't because of DRIVER Hamilton.
- Not being there in 2021 allow them to put all the money to ensure this 2020 victory
LOL, it doesn't work that way at all. The 2020 car has been penned and planned years ago and the 2021
competitor is just as much in development.
- This will be better to leave in glory rather than beaten by competitors
It's better NOT to leave like a dog with it's tail between it's legs but actually BEAT the competition in the
new formula TOO.
- Not having to fire people with budget cap
So they better off fireing EVERYBODY?! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: #-o #-o #-o
- And maintaining a presence in F1 with AMG engines.
They'll do that either way.
Imagine Mercedes fighting Mclaren both with Mercedes power. That's exposure there.
Remember 2014? Who were the boys that ruled? Mercedes and Williams due to the Merc engine.
It's good to stay.
Engines will be the same on 2021, we even speak of freeze. Having 3 customers is not that expensive to keep an engine program
So with much more neutralized engine field, then the biggest impact left to make is with the CHASSIS, so the team.
For that, you need to STAY.

Honestly, all your points on why Mercedes would/should leave are actually the reasons they should stay. =D>
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

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Capharol
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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Manoah2u wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:00 am
there is going to be a new team in 2021 'Panthera'
on all your other points i agree with you
but about Panthera isn't correct....
Todt: No "relevant, solid" options for new Formula 1 teams
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14621 ... w-f1-teams
Brawn says potential new F1 teams need to wait until 2022
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/braw ... 2/4524459/
Strive for continuous improvement, instead of perfection.
"Most people seem to turn off their brain when they turn on the computer and log in to social media."

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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Ok, thanks for that update. Must say i don't take Todt that serious though, but will see.
Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools.

XRayF1
XRayF1
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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Capharol wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:53 am
Manoah2u wrote:
Mon Sep 30, 2019 11:00 am
there is going to be a new team in 2021 'Panthera'
on all your other points i agree with you
but about Panthera isn't correct....
Todt: No "relevant, solid" options for new Formula 1 teams
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/14621 ... w-f1-teams
Brawn says potential new F1 teams need to wait until 2022
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/braw ... 2/4524459/
He did not suggest Panthera being a new F1 Team in 2021, but a Formula E one.
In case a budget cap is actually introduced thus forcing many F1 teams to lay off people, Formula E and this new team Panthera will surely need qualified engineers to compete.