2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

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izzy
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by izzy » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:31 am

GPR -A wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:47 am

Well the W10 seems to be an extremely draggy car for the kind of downforce it has. Toto had mentioned that their philosophy was "Downforce at all costs", which could be why they are losing so much of performance in straight line, despite multiple upgrades to the PU in the last 12 months.

On the other hand, either Ferrari has more refined and efficient downforce and NOT SO MUCH of a powerful PU than Mercedes, which makes them faster in straight line; OR, they have similar drag to that of Mercedes, but a way more powerful PU (to the tune of 50 hp more), which doesn't seem to be true because of speed trap figures; Traction could be another factor, but Mercedes' PU is not a slouch on traction, so that isn't going to be such a big factor either. May be their German GP upgrade package is extremely draggy upgrade, which has made that impact in Sochi.

So, that leaves me with the belief that, there is too much drag W10 has and Mercedes should be trying to make more efficient aero as their primary target.
yes and on racefans their simple speed index had Mercedes as iirc the only car that was slower than last year. It fits in with the car being a bit of a rush job after the tyres tests at the end of last year, when they learned how much load these tyres to get them working, so it was downforce at all costs as you say and tho it was the right idea over the season now Ferrari have found that load with their basically lower drag concept

But anyway it's all for next year now. i wouldn't be surprised if they knew the new heave spring wasn't quite right with the old suspension but they ran it to find out about it

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Just_a_fan » Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:55 am

The amount of turning vanes and VGs the Mercedes carries is always going to make it draggy. Every time you turn air you add drag and that forest of bits in front of the sidepod is all about working the air hard. So drag is a given. It's noticeable that Mercedes's front wing has been getting lower at the outer end as the season has progressed. I'm guessing the team are trying to get as much outwash as Ferrari seem to in order to be able to cut down some of the other bits mid-car.

The Mercedes's concept was always about using the front wing to turn air, this year they've had to do it elsewhere and the result appears to be effective - the car is still very good overall - but at the expense of a touch of top speed.
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Mattchu
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Mattchu » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:12 pm

Does nobody else think Mercedes have decided to turn the notch down a little so that F1 doesn`t become just a one team show. Sure in the past they dominated all season but that was at a detriment to Formula 1 in general.
They are there to win but also know the show is probably the most important aspect. You need to have Red Bull and Ferrari winning a few races, a podium here or there for other teams to keep the fans of said teams happy.
The more people watch the show, the more exposure the brand gets, they romped away with it early on due to several mistakes from Ferrari and then we had loads saying it`s boring, one team series, etc...

The team also likes to make sure the engine last 7 races therefore don`t overuse it unless needed. The car is still the class of the field and if there was a one off winner takes all race, I know where my money would go!

TAG
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by TAG » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:27 pm

GPR -A wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:47 am
On the other hand, either Ferrari has more refined and efficient downforce and NOT SO MUCH of a powerful PU than Mercedes, which makes them faster in straight line; OR, they have similar drag to that of Mercedes, but a way more powerful PU (to the tune of 50 hp more), which doesn't seem to be true because of speed trap figures; Traction could be another factor, but Mercedes' PU is not a slouch on traction, so that isn't going to be such a big factor either.
The biggest difference between the two seems to be off the line in how the Ferrari is able to pull away quicker applying more power faster which allows them to spend more time at top speed than Mercedes. That off the line and out of turn initial acceleration is all PU not aero impacted. IMO Ferrari has a PU advantage since last year and only after figuring out their aero issues this year after the break have been able to properly get best the synergy.
Countdown to 91: 7 more victories ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

dans79
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by dans79 » Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:24 pm

TAG wrote:
Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:27 pm
The biggest difference between the two seems to be off the line in how the Ferrari is able to pull away quicker applying more power faster which allows them to spend more time at top speed than Mercedes. That off the line and out of turn initial acceleration is all PU not aero impacted. IMO Ferrari has a PU advantage since last year and only after figuring out their aero issues this year after the break have been able to properly get best the synergy.
I think one of the indicators to what is going on is that the strait line speed and pure grunt Ferrari displays in qualifying, all but disappears during the race. During the race Ferrari only real advantage seems to be their low drag concept. As Charles mentioned, he thinks Merc is still ahead when it comes to race pace.


To me this says Ferrari has some how found a way to utilize the maximum fuel flow rate more often during a qualifying lap than Merc. Obviously they can't do this during the race, because they would exceed the fuel usage limit.

So in qualifying I bet they are doing something like the following.
  1. Harvesting at low speeds when they are traction limited, as the ice provides more than enough grunt. This could also act as a very very poor mans traction control system that's still legal.
  2. As they get out of the traction limited region they roll off harvesting, and roll in MGU-K deployment.
  3. As some point they have to start saving MGU-k deployment for other parts lap, so they roll that off and roll in MGU-H supercharging using the extra energy they harvested when traction limited.
I think this would really only make a noticeable difference with a low drag concept, because the low speed harvesting isn't going to generate huge amounts of power.

Morteza
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Morteza » Thu Oct 10, 2019 12:49 pm

His name is James :lol:
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

Morteza
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Morteza » Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:54 pm

"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

izzy
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by izzy » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:18 pm

Morteza wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:54 pm
https://youtu.be/XgqR6zNyUsU
fabulous! completely extreme and ridiculous: F1 8) 8)

Juzh
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Juzh » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:51 pm

Hamilton's P2 lap from free practice 2. First sector absolutely insane.
https://streamable.com/hfv3q


Now, Hamilton says bottas had a 0.5s tow on his fastest run and that's how he got in front:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hami ... a/4556241/

Lets see:
https://streamable.com/j1qse


Based on this clip I would say bottas did indeed get P1 purely because of slipstream. He exits spoon corner behind hamilton, yet is significantly ahead after 130r. Speedometer confirms this as well. I also lined them up just after spoon to see how much difference there really was on that back straight and found out bottas gained around ~0.36s using tow.
Last edited by Juzh on Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jozsusz
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by Jozsusz » Fri Oct 11, 2019 7:04 pm

Juzh wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:51 pm
Hamilton's P2 lap from free practice 2. First sector absolutely insane.
https://streamable.com/hfv3q
https://streamable.com/hfv3q

Now, Hamilton says bottas had a 0.5s tow on his fastest run and that's how he got in front:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hami ... a/4556241/

Lets see:
https://streamable.com/zc6pf
https://streamable.com/zc6pf

Based on this clip I would say bottas did indeed get P1 purely because of slipstream. He exits spoon corner behind hamilton, yet is significantly ahead after 130r. Speedometer confirms this as well. I also lined them up just after spoon to see how much difference there really was on that back straight and found out bottas gained around ~0.36s using tow.
He should have used another strat mode as well. When he was not in the toe he was still faster in the straights.

izzy
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by izzy » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:34 pm

we know how Toto gives Lewis a lot of freedom? part of how he and Niki tempted him away from McLaren? on Racefans they say tomorrow he might go and join a dolphin protest!
there’s something like three hours away called the cove where they’re slaughtering all the dolphins. I’m tempted to go tomorrow and do that because I’ve got nothing else to do and it would be great to kind of put the spotlight on something like that.

So I might do that.
this is why i love him 8) :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: and god i hope he goes. The F1 establishment will be in a massive panic

LM10
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by LM10 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:48 pm

izzy wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:34 pm
we know how Toto gives Lewis a lot of freedom? part of how he and Niki tempted him away from McLaren? on Racefans they say tomorrow he might go and join a dolphin protest!
there’s something like three hours away called the cove where they’re slaughtering all the dolphins. I’m tempted to go tomorrow and do that because I’ve got nothing else to do and it would be great to kind of put the spotlight on something like that.

So I might do that.
this is why i love him 8) :kiss: :kiss: :kiss: and god i hope he goes. The F1 establishment will be in a massive panic
Why?

izzy
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by izzy » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:13 pm

LM10 wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:48 pm
Why?
a LOT of Japanese people will be upset at the 'attack on their culture'

MtthsMlw
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by MtthsMlw » Fri Oct 11, 2019 9:41 pm

Morteza wrote:
Thu Oct 10, 2019 8:54 pm
https://youtu.be/XgqR6zNyUsU
Fantastic to see the front suspension in movement like this.

RZS10
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Re: 2019 Mercedes AMG Petronas Formula One Team

Post by RZS10 » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:07 am

Apparently Mercedes believes that keeping their number two happy was worth throwing away a relatively safe 1-2 in this race ... i guess Lewis is mature enough to not get too wound up from being screwed over with the strat.