2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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marvin78
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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LM10 wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:22 am
Wass85 wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:53 am
Jambier wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:48 pm
Regarding performance, Ferrari told that they are now as quick as Red Bull even in low grip low speed.
This is a change in their philosophy since several race, adding more downforce.

We can see that with that kind of setup, they are matching RB in corner, but also they aren't fastest than RB in straights.

But why would they change their philosophy when at one point they comfortably had the fastest car, especially in qualifying.
If you think they had the fastest car in the races you clearly have not paid attention. The only times they could convert pole positions into race wins were in Belgium and Italy and if you remember it was only due to the long straights which made Leclerc hold position even though Mercedes was right at his gearbox for several laps.
Being quickest in qualifying won't make you win races. It's on Sunday when it really matters.

Now, because the season is long done already, it would be foolish not to try things out. What Ferrari obviously is trying out is to put highest possible downforce on the car. But they're doing it in a really unefficient way with biggest rear wings. Their car concept is low drag after all so unless you don't change your concept every way you do it will be unefficient.

At no time before in this season Ferrari has been that close to Redbull in the corners. The difference is that Ferrari managed this only with the biggest rear wing on the grid while Redbull had the slimmest.
And that is THE explanation that matches Occham's Razor!

Wass85
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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LM10 wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:22 am
Wass85 wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:53 am
Jambier wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 9:48 pm
Regarding performance, Ferrari told that they are now as quick as Red Bull even in low grip low speed.
This is a change in their philosophy since several race, adding more downforce.

We can see that with that kind of setup, they are matching RB in corner, but also they aren't fastest than RB in straights.

But why would they change their philosophy when at one point they comfortably had the fastest car, especially in qualifying.
If you think they had the fastest car in the races you clearly have not paid attention. The only times they could convert pole positions into race wins were in Belgium and Italy and if you remember it was only due to the long straights which made Leclerc hold position even though Mercedes was right at his gearbox for several laps.
Being quickest in qualifying won't make you win races. It's on Sunday when it really matters.

Now, because the season is long done already, it would be foolish not to try things out. What Ferrari obviously is trying out is to put highest possible downforce on the car. But they're doing it in a really unefficient way with biggest rear wings. Their car concept is low drag after all so unless you don't change your concept every way you do it will be unefficient.

At no time before in this season Ferrari has been that close to Redbull in the corners. The difference is that Ferrari managed this only with the biggest rear wing on the grid while Redbull had the slimmest.
Did you read my post, I said especially in qualifying. And seeing as they won those races you've mentioned they were "quick" enough and that's all that counts.

You talk as though they've sacrificed top speed and qualifying for race pace, they are still no better off in that department and in fact are worse off.

Qualifying in front gives you the chance to control the pace, now they don't have the luxury of being able to and neither do they have the pace to challenge for the win.

LM10
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Wass85 wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:00 am
LM10 wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:22 am
Wass85 wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:53 am



But why would they change their philosophy when at one point they comfortably had the fastest car, especially in qualifying.
If you think they had the fastest car in the races you clearly have not paid attention. The only times they could convert pole positions into race wins were in Belgium and Italy and if you remember it was only due to the long straights which made Leclerc hold position even though Mercedes was right at his gearbox for several laps.
Being quickest in qualifying won't make you win races. It's on Sunday when it really matters.

Now, because the season is long done already, it would be foolish not to try things out. What Ferrari obviously is trying out is to put highest possible downforce on the car. But they're doing it in a really unefficient way with biggest rear wings. Their car concept is low drag after all so unless you don't change your concept every way you do it will be unefficient.

At no time before in this season Ferrari has been that close to Redbull in the corners. The difference is that Ferrari managed this only with the biggest rear wing on the grid while Redbull had the slimmest.
Did you read my post, I said especially in qualifying. And seeing as they won those races you've mentioned they were "quick" enough and that's all that counts.

You talk as though they've sacrificed top speed and qualifying for race pace, they are still no better off in that department and in fact are worse off.

Qualifying in front gives you the chance to control the pace, now they don't have the luxury of being able to and neither do they have the pace to challenge for the win.
From Singapore on their qualifying pace was better than before, but except Singapore none of those races ended with a Ferrari win and in none of these races Ferrari looked competitive. You cannot control the pace, if your tyres fall off 10 laps before the ones of the other teams. In 2019 following cars is much easier. Cars with less tyre deg will just follow you and either overtake or under-/overcut you when your tyres aren't in good shape anymore. Belgium and Italy are high speed tracks and only this saved Ferrari.

You wrote that they still are not better on race pace. First of all, Ferrari appeared to have had a strong race pace this time. What's more, it was only the second time in a row they've gone the direction of adding highest possible downforce on the car. If it was that easy to do such set-up changes and immediately nail it, we would have much less problems in F1. But it isn't.

And again, Ferrari's downforce might help them in the corners now as they are matching Mercedes and are quite close to Redbull, but it is downforce with a big drag penalty.

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Jambier
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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As some of you I think they want to a too radical "low drag" concept.

It is useful for fuel consumption, for qualy, for top speed and overtaking/protecting a position, buf if it kills tyres and mean you are slow in race, it is no good.

In a opposite way, I feel like Mercedes may be a bit too much downforce oriented.

And i think it is difficult to change this during a season, let's see what they will do next year

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MtthsMlw
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Jambier wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:57 pm
As some of you I think they want to a too radical "low drag" concept.

It is useful for fuel consumption, for qualy, for top speed and overtaking/protecting a position, buf if it kills tyres and mean you are slow in race, it is no good.

In a opposite way, I feel like Mercedes may be a bit too much downforce oriented.

And i think it is difficult to change this during a season, let's see what they will do next year
Binotto hinted at that they will keep this kind of concept, mainly highlighting the advantages that come with it.
I read that somewhere, don't ask for a source please :lol:

A wider tyre window might help Ferrari the 2020 tyres are supposed to deliver that.
I personally would go for a car reminiscent of the SF70h, solid car on sunday but lacked power on saturday.
It's all in the tyres though.

Sevach
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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MtthsMlw wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 1:07 pm
Jambier wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:57 pm
As some of you I think they want to a too radical "low drag" concept.

It is useful for fuel consumption, for qualy, for top speed and overtaking/protecting a position, buf if it kills tyres and mean you are slow in race, it is no good.

In a opposite way, I feel like Mercedes may be a bit too much downforce oriented.

And i think it is difficult to change this during a season, let's see what they will do next year
Binotto hinted at that they will keep this kind of concept, mainly highlighting the advantages that come with it.
I read that somewhere, don't ask for a source please :lol:

A wider tyre window might help Ferrari the 2020 tyres are supposed to deliver that.
I personally would go for a car reminiscent of the SF70h, solid car on sunday but lacked power on saturday.
It's all in the tyres though.
What i heard is that they'll keep their FW style.
Nothing in the general sense of downforce vs drag but your source might be different.

2020 tires are said to require a different setup and change the front/rear balance, i wonder in which direction and if any 2019 car would move up/down in performance comparison using them.

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Jambier
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Anyway, Pirelli are a pure Joke, so we don't know how they will behave.

That's why teams must design car with the wider possible tyre usage, at least to start the year

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Wouter
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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=D> \:D/ =D> \:D/ =D> \:D/ =D> \:D/

Sebastian Vettel will not be present at the Yas Marina Circuit in Abu Dhabi today.
The German has received good news. For the third time, the Ferrari driver has become a father.
Leclerc is now alone in the press conference. :cry: . :)

Gothrek
Gothrek
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:08 am
=D> \:D/ =D> \:D/ =D> \:D/ =D> \:D/

Sebastian Vettel will not be present at the Yas Marina Circuit in Abu Dhabi today.
The German has received good news. For the third time, the Ferrari driver has become a father.
Leclerc is now alone in the press conference. :cry: . :)
I wonder if there could be an influence on him because of this. He is probably one of the few drivers with a family. Must be pure agony missing them so much because of the f1 circus.

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TAG
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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"So it's not the first time and it has always been OK, but today we've got a discrepancy."
"You declare a certain quantity of fuel at the start of the race that you're filling in the car," he explained.
"The FIA may sometimes try to check what has been declared by simply weighing the car, emptying the car, weighing it again, do the difference, and try to verify if you got [a difference]."

Binotto says that the fuel-saving was not linked to the investigation and that it was actually a decision taken due to reliability concerns.

Asked by Autosport why the team had spent much of the race in engine mode four, Binotto said: "We had an engine failure in Austin with Charles, and we know that in terms of mileage we could have been at risk.

"I think we had to manage to save the tyres, at least on the hard, to potentially be on a one-stop race which has not been the case."So overall we believe that was right to simply manage engines, tyres and managing the race." wtf1
Ferrari and Trump apparently have the same PR manager. One fake news and one witchunt away from copy/paste defense. The season is way over, I don't even give a crap about whether they cheated or not. If they did, then I feel doubly sad about the whole situation. If they didn't then they sure as hell try to look guilty with the circuitous you're never gonna believe this type of defense. Stop it, it's painful now, it's time to move on.
Last edited by TAG on Mon Dec 02, 2019 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
माकडाच्या हाती कोलीत

Bill
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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It has not been a good year for Ferrari. The change of leadership from Maurizio Arrivabene to Binotto has not worked for them they have gone from being a team fighting for championship to a team renowned for their cheating ways ,I know it's not a popular opinion here but that 50 000 fine pretty much clears the air. I said it before the truth will eventually come out. For whatever reason that infringement had been tucked under the rug not questioned or discussed at length.

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turbof1
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Bill wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 2:20 pm
I know it's not a popular opinion here but that 50 000 fine pretty much clears the air. I said it before the truth will eventually come out. For whatever reason that infringement had been tucked under the rug not questioned or discussed at length.
It's not populair, not because members are considered to act naïve or close their eyes as if nothings happens, definitely Ferrari is sitting in quite a shady mist, but because accusations of cheating come with considerable weight and bagage. I always preach some restraint on that because it is very easy to connect dots when it is not 100% clear the dots are indeed connected.

In the end, it would neither surprise me if Ferrari cheated or if they are swanky clean. Both acts have of cheating and innocence have been proven enough times in F1 to exclude neither.

I can give a bit more information on the 50,000 dollar, because frankly I do find myself that a very lenient punishment and I was wondering why it was not an automatic DSQ. First off, we have to assume Ferrari did not use more than 110kg (+ whatever allowances for pre race running, post race, 1l sample, etc). If they did, the only action the stewards (that is right the stewards as the FIA cannot intervene in the decision making in incidents before appeal) could have taken was DSQ:
30.5 No car is permitted to consume more than 110kg of fuel, from the time at which the signal to start the race is given to the time each car crosses the Line after the end‐of‐race signal has been given. Other than in cases of force majeure (accepted as such by the stewards), any driver exceeding this limit will be disqualified from the race results.
So the discrepancy will not have exceeded the allowed fuel amount by the regulations. So we are speaking about a discrepancy that would not have given an illegal competitive advantage (atleast not on its own, more about that below), but purely about Ferrari misinforming the FIA on the reported amount of fuel in the tank.

So it's not an infringement on the sporting regulations. And it's neither an infringement on the technical regulations (to my own surprise), which would also have led to an automatic disqualification. The Technical Directive has a flaw in my opinion in that regard because it is not a direct clarification of any sporting or technical regulation.

The stewards therefore deemed it be an infringement on the International Sporting Code:
12.1.1.i Failure to follow the instructions of the relevant officials for the safe and orderly conduct of the Event.
This is a bit of a catch all rule, suited where the technical and sporting regulations are not covering this. Again this is surprising and a flaw in the directive given fuel is usually governed both the technical and sporting regulations, and usually any infringement on that would lead to a DSQ under either rule book.

But this is not the case in the Sporting Code. A breach on 12.1.1.i can be penalized by DSQ, but is not required. 12.3 of the ISC mentions a whole pletora of penalties ranging from a reprimand to exclusion of the championship.

I can somewhat understand the decision (emphasis on understand, as I do not agree with it) made to keep at a 50,000 dollar fine. There was no precedence and ultimately Ferrari did not have an advantage of it during the race. Taken that into isolation, a fine seems understandable.

My gripes with this though, is that all other fuel infringements -again covered under both sporting and technical regulations- have always led to a DSQ of the relevant session, even in instances where it was questionable any advantage was gained. This does give inconsistency, even if not governed by the same rulebook.

Second, Ferrari was warned. And they will have made sure to keep enough fuel in the tank at the end of the race to show they were just carrying around dead weight. A grossly excagerated comparison, it would be similar to a cop seeing a burglar sneaking up the porch of a house with lock opening tools and jelling "if you use that on the front door, I will have to arrest you".

Also, and here is why I want to emphasize I am not telling my opinion, but merely making a hypothesis, so this should not be considered by any means as fact or accusation, but if Ferrari is cheating somewhere and deliberately giving the wrong fuel weight to the FIA as part of that, e.g. tampering with the fuel flow sensor for a higher fuel flow and thus requiring more fuel to run, then we are of course in a different ball park again, with Ferrari having a chance to cover it up. Again, I am of the opinion this is not the case and I believe this whole debacle was an accidental error, but I am careful also not exclude the possibility, how unlikely it is for me. Should that have been the case, any incident where a wrongful number was given to the FIA and the result being a DSQ, would be a strong deterrent against using hypothetical illegal practices lying underneath the none-reported fuel weight.

Again, the last paragraph is not fact, it's not an accusation. It's not even my opinion. It's purely a hypothesis. And I would very much like people to adjust to that same objectiveness.
#AeroFrodo

Bill
Bill
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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That's a lot explanation but I don't know what to say but I appreciate the effort

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turbof1
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Bill wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:22 pm
That's a lot explanation but I don't know what to say but I appreciate the effort
Well, the motto in F1 is "why make things simple when you can make it complicated" :lol: . I'm getting a drink; brain got overheated making that piece.
#AeroFrodo

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subcritical71
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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Well said turbof1, especially the last part. While I also do not believe Ferrari are cheating in this case, I also cannot exclude it. They have basically made public a very good method of how to skirt the rules and get away with it though, even if not intentional. It kinda reminds me of the OJ Simpson book, "If I Did It"....