2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
Nonserviam85
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Nonserviam85 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:42 am

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:24 pm
Mattchu wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:45 pm
maybe Ferrari are missing the input of Kimi when it comes to the front end...
Why? Can't Vettel or Leclerc say "it's understanding and we need more front end grip"?

This idea that the driver engineers the car to be better is quite amusing really... :lol:
This is very wrong actually, the dynamic feedback the drivers provide on set-up changes and chassis updates is invaluable and this is where Kimi excels.

ferkan
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by ferkan » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:05 am

Mind you, last years car had understeer tendencies, as did 2015 and 2016, so Kimi must have slept through engineer briefings in wind tunnel. :mrgreen:

One and Only
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by One and Only » Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:41 am

Mattchu wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:45 pm
dans79 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:16 pm
Ashwinv16 wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:43 pm
there isn't any other track that requires the fronts to work well so we still don't know who is on top.
:wtf: I have to say I disagree with this!
One other thing I think may carry some weight is that most drivers like a solid front end [of which the Ferrari seems to be lacking for whatever reason] so they can stick the car into corners and then counter any rear end movement with the steering wheel.
Most of these drivers started in karting and the lower divisions where the ability to correct oversteer seems to be hard wired. I can`t recall a driver liking the front sliding away fron them, maybe Ferrari are missing the input of Kimi when it comes to the front end...
If I recall correctly reading post on other forum by Mladen Jergovic who worked at FOM and is/was close with some people in Ferrari, Michael Schumacher preferred understeery car. As he wrote "heavy nose" car. It was at the time Kimi arrived in Ferrari for the first time and he was comparing driving styles of the two. MS would work really hard to put the car where he wants it setup wise, and Kimi was total opposite as he would drive around the problem. It was long time ago, but I recall Ferrari engineers told him they rate Kimi as one of the fastest drivers ever in Ferrari F1 car. It was interesting to read about engineers' point of view.
Nevertheless understeer isn't quite what's the problem for Vettel. Unstable rear end is what makes him uncomfortable in the car. Remember how strong he was in blown diffuser era.
"Don't you know there ain't no devil, it's just God when he's drunk." Tom Waits

Just_a_fan
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:17 am

Nonserviam85 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:42 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:24 pm
Mattchu wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:45 pm
maybe Ferrari are missing the input of Kimi when it comes to the front end...
Why? Can't Vettel or Leclerc say "it's understanding and we need more front end grip"?

This idea that the driver engineers the car to be better is quite amusing really... :lol:
This is very wrong actually, the dynamic feedback the drivers provide on set-up changes and chassis updates is invaluable and this is where Kimi excels.
Driver: It's understeering in the slow corners
Engineer: Mechanics, make these changes
Driver: Yes, better in slow corners but it's oversteering in faster corners
Engineer: Mechanics, make these changes
Driver: It's still a bit understeery in the slow, oversteery in the fast but I can live with it, I feel more comfortable now

The driver's comments are about his preferences and what makes him lack confidence in the car. That's the key issue - driver confidence. The car is what the car is and has a best possible lap time built in to it, the engineer's job is to tune it to make the driver feel happy, not to make the car itself faster. A confident driver is a faster driver. A confident driver can get the car closer to its best possible lap time. The driver isn't "developing the car", they're just making themselves more confident in it. The design team and engineers "develop the car". The design team add downforce / reduce drag / add power etc. The engineer then helps the driver get comfortable with the new package. But it's the performance built in to the car by the factory that ultimately determines the car's performance. The best drivers just get closest to the car's built in performance.

Quite why this mystical idea of the driver developing the car has arisen, I'm not sure. Perhaps it's because we have so many ex-drivers as pundits. Brundle likes to talk about the driver developing the car. I think it's a case of self aggrandizing on his part.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Bisonas
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Bisonas » Wed Apr 17, 2019 12:28 pm

Phil wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:11 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:39 am
Funny thing about qualifying, over the 3 races so far, Leclerc is on average 0.025 faster than Vettel.
Apart from that though, the orders so far have been quite logical and not very surprising. As far as team management goes, cant fault Binotto for Vettels mistake in China and Leclercs reliability. Had that not been the case, Ferrari would have a win to their name, Hamilton one less and as a result, they’d be substantially ahead of Verstappen in the driver standings and closer to Mercedes. What will you criticize him for?
I wrote the following as a comment on a post on some website, and i am writing them also here because its rellevant to what you said.

Ferrari had THREE options.
1st option, Tell VET to follow LEC pace in a safe distance, while saving tires.
2nd option, Make the switch right away and let the slightly faster VET follow the mercs while his tires are ok.
3rd option, After you left your drivers destroy their tires following each other closely. At least understand ASAP that a one stop option won't work any more and commit to a 2 stop before others do.

If Ferrari was bringing in LEC for tires at the same time or earlier than RB, they would hold the upper hand on holding 3rd and 4th until the end, regardless if RB followed them on a 2 stop or not. Probably LEC would be again, ahead of VET after, but for sure they would have been 3rd and 4th.

But Binotto is trapped into a situation having to manage VET demands and ego(Backed within Ferrari), LEC ambitions and ego (backed from the Italian press) and the Italian press backlash that is looming on every wrong decision he makes.

So the fear of upsetting any of those 3 variables is making Ferrari slow and passive on strategy calls. That's why i criticize Binotto.
Let drivers destroy their tires on first stint and compromise strategy its plain stupid. A Ferrari fan that have no driver preferences and understand F1 would see the first part of the race as a really bad joke.

Mattchu
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Mattchu » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:09 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:24 pm
Mattchu wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:45 pm
maybe Ferrari are missing the input of Kimi when it comes to the front end...
Why? Can't Vettel or Leclerc say "it's understeering and we need more front end grip"?

This idea that the driver engineers the car to be better is quite amusing really... :lol:
Where did I or anyone say the drivers engineer the car? The input the driver gives to the engineers has to carry some weight, they are driving the car after all!

dans79
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Location: USA

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by dans79 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:28 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:17 am
Driver: It's understeering in the slow corners
Engineer: Mechanics, make these changes
Driver: Yes, better in slow corners but it's oversteering in faster corners
Engineer: Mechanics, make these changes
Driver: It's still a bit understeery in the slow, oversteery in the fast but I can live with it, I feel more comfortable now
The interactions between a competent driver and his engineers are a hel* of a lot more detailed than that.

Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:17 am
Quite why this mystical idea of the driver developing the car has arisen, I'm not sure. Perhaps it's because we have so many ex-drivers as pundits. Brundle likes to talk about the driver developing the car. I think it's a case of self aggrandizing on his part.
Or it could be that the drivers aren't the simpletons that you think they are!

LM10
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by LM10 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:29 pm

https://www.formel1.de/news/news/2019-0 ... 848aaec247

Sebastian Vettel: Little by little we understand what it's about


Find answers to important questions: Ferrari driver Sebastian Vettel explains what has to be done in his team for the SF90 to become a winning car


Third race, first place on the podium, but renewed disappointment: Ferrari did not manage to leave Mercedes behind in the race in Shanghai. And Sebastian Vettel has to admit that his team has not been able to use the SF90 optimally. The vehicle once again did not behave as desired.

The new Ferrari is basically not a faulty construction, as Vettel points out: "We have a very strong car, there's nothing wrong with that, but I think we can not get it into the right window, here and there."

Especially in Bahrain Vettel had made heavy effort. There, his Ferrari team-mate Charles Leclerc clearly showed the better performance, while Vettel is still struggling with the car not to be able to build on the good performance of the winter tests.


Vettel calls schedule for Ferrari

After all, Vettel imagines Ferrari on the verge of a breakthrough: "Gradually we see a certain pattern and recognize above all the race distance, what we need, what I need to unleash the performance of the car." What it is concrete, he leaves open.

But for the first time Vettel addresses a certain time frame that Ferrari has for the turnaround available. "I think the next few weeks will be very important for us to understand in which direction the matter has to move in the coming months," says Vettel. Means: If the team wants to have a title chance, then it will soon need a winning car, otherwise Mercedes moves too far.

And currently Ferrari is still behind. That was "clearly" evident in China, says Vettel. "We were not as fast there as Mercedes, although there were periods in the race when we were strong, but there were also times when we fell short of our own expectations."


The engine is not the problem


However, Ferrari is far from a "panic mode," says Vettel. The performance of Mercedes was nothing shocking for the traditional team, but only the consequence of the fact that Ferrari itself was not sorted out. "At this stage, it's just about getting everything done." Just like Mercedes, who had a "good run" in three races so far and scored three double victories.

The Ferrari record is mixed, though: "We had some weather issues in Australia, probably with the set-up as well, we learned our lesson for Bahrain, where things went better, but there are still sections of the race where we are too weak, which has proved again this weekend ", explains Vettel.

However, at least on the part of the engine Ferrari is not trailing anymore, but could be "very satisfied", as Vettel says. "Our engine seems to be strong and our car is working, we just have to get it out of the car, and Charles did it better in Bahrain than I did."

And so Vettel spurs his team on intensive cause research. Because: "The performance is there, it is difficult to find."

Just_a_fan
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Just_a_fan » Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:50 pm

dans79 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:28 pm

The interactions between a competent driver and his engineers are a hel* of a lot more detailed than that.
Sure, but he isn't saying "we need to add some corner weight here, take a bit of rebound off here", he's reporting how the car feels and how it responds to his inputs before/after changes. He doesn't engineer the car.

Or it could be that the drivers aren't the simpletons that you think they are!
Compared to the engineers, they are. Their job is not to engineer, it is to drive and give as good feedback as possible to help the engineer do his job.

The driver can't do anything without decent engineers and mechanics to interpret his ramblings in to changes to the car. Ergo, the driver doesn't "develop the car", the design team and engineers do.

It's a bit like the myth that the team "designed the car to suit driver X". Total tosh.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Nonserviam85
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Nonserviam85 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:29 pm

Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:50 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:28 pm

The interactions between a competent driver and his engineers are a hel* of a lot more detailed than that.
Sure, but he isn't saying "we need to add some corner weight here, take a bit of rebound off here", he's reporting how the car feels and how it responds to his inputs before/after changes. He doesn't engineer the car.

Or it could be that the drivers aren't the simpletons that you think they are!
Compared to the engineers, they are. Their job is not to engineer, it is to drive and give as good feedback as possible to help the engineer do his job.

The driver can't do anything without decent engineers and mechanics to interpret his ramblings in to changes to the car. Ergo, the driver doesn't "develop the car", the design team and engineers do.

It's a bit like the myth that the team "designed the car to suit driver X". Total tosh.
I think you are mixing the parameters a driver can change in the cockpit during racing with the actual set-up preparation before/after the race or during testing. Actually the F1 drivers are there for a reason and they have huge inputs in the actual set-up preparation/optimization of the car parameters on a track to track basis. If as a driver you cannot understand how a camber/caster/spring rate etc will change the behaviour of the car then you simply don't belong to F1. If you ever meet a track engineer this is the very first thing that he will confirm to you, how much difference the technical and feedback capability of a driver can make. History are full of drivers that made a career based on their feedback despite never being as fast as others.

And that's even without mentioning the assessment of car updates/evolution during the season, this is another level. We are getting off-topic now and there is no need to discuss it further here.

marmer
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Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:48 am

Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by marmer » Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:01 pm

Nonserviam85 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:29 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:50 pm
dans79 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:28 pm

The interactions between a competent driver and his engineers are a hel* of a lot more detailed than that.
Sure, but he isn't saying "we need to add some corner weight here, take a bit of rebound off here", he's reporting how the car feels and how it responds to his inputs before/after changes. He doesn't engineer the car.

Or it could be that the drivers aren't the simpletons that you think they are!
Compared to the engineers, they are. Their job is not to engineer, it is to drive and give as good feedback as possible to help the engineer do his job.

The driver can't do anything without decent engineers and mechanics to interpret his ramblings in to changes to the car. Ergo, the driver doesn't "develop the car", the design team and engineers do.

It's a bit like the myth that the team "designed the car to suit driver X". Total tosh.
I think you are mixing the parameters a driver can change in the cockpit during racing with the actual set-up preparation before/after the race or during testing. Actually the F1 drivers are there for a reason and they have huge inputs in the actual set-up preparation/optimization of the car parameters on a track to track basis. If as a driver you cannot understand how a camber/caster/spring rate etc will change the behaviour of the car then you simply don't belong to F1. If you ever meet a track engineer this is the very first thing that he will confirm to you, how much difference the technical and feedback capability of a driver can make. History are full of drivers that made a career based on their feedback despite never being as fast as others.

And that's even without mentioning the assessment of car updates/evolution during the season, this is another level. We are getting off-topic now and there is no need to discuss it further here.
I think your over exaggerating a drivers ability to help develop a car. In technical terms.
Driver feedback is crucial yes but it can only be combined with trust in an engineer to figure what a driver feels in the car. Lewis is a world class driver but he regularly moans about his tyres being awful when they are going through a graining period and begs to get new ones by now he should understand this better. But luckily he has a team of top engineers behind him to stop his rash choices.
In terms of setup there is no point a driver being a Dr of engineering to explain fairly simple issues
Lack of front end grip in a high speed corner is normally caused by a lack of downforce so all he needs to do is explain he thinks he needs more

Same with slow corner he feels understeer on entry probably a balance or suspension issue it's the engineering teams job to give driver a new setup to test.

Also a driver knowing too much can also lead to issues if they start to go into detail about setup and disagree with the team creating friction
Driver wants a setup team want b setup driver trys b mentally doesn't like it before he is on track drivers bad tells team is rubbish they try his way goes out happy and is slower and it'd now qualification and out in q1

tinvek
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by tinvek » Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:43 am

of course in the old days, drivers could make a substantial difference to a car, in 78, lotus decided to test andretti as they were getting a bit fed up with his constant tinkering / requests for minute setup changes, especially his use of rubber spacer blocks / shims between the spring coils which they were convinced was purely a mental thing because he'd used them on ovals. so they deliberately sent him out for a session with mis matched spring rates all round without telling him, andretti came in complaining abut the car but settled into his routine of making adjustments, going out, coming back in for more adjustments, adding his little rubber blocks / shims , changing their size etc. at the end of the session they put the car on scales and the corner weights were almost exactly matched, after that they never complained about his setup requests.

today a good development driver really means the ability to provide accurate consistent detailed feedback and drive in a consistent, disciplined manner rather than just chasing a faster lap time, autocar did a feature about testing the 956 before it's debut and how bell was sent out on the last afternoon and when he came in asked about how the tyres felt, he replied that they felt the same as some they'd run on the afternoon of first day of the test, at this the engineers all smiled as they were the same actual set of tyres, to quote autocar "sometimes porsche test the drivers " but the point was they needed to know how accurate the driver's feedback was.

Nonserviam85
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Re: Scuderia Ferrari SF90

Post by Nonserviam85 » Thu Apr 18, 2019 12:29 pm

marmer wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 10:01 pm
Nonserviam85 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:29 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 2:50 pm

Sure, but he isn't saying "we need to add some corner weight here, take a bit of rebound off here", he's reporting how the car feels and how it responds to his inputs before/after changes. He doesn't engineer the car.


Compared to the engineers, they are. Their job is not to engineer, it is to drive and give as good feedback as possible to help the engineer do his job.

The driver can't do anything without decent engineers and mechanics to interpret his ramblings in to changes to the car. Ergo, the driver doesn't "develop the car", the design team and engineers do.

It's a bit like the myth that the team "designed the car to suit driver X". Total tosh.
I think you are mixing the parameters a driver can change in the cockpit during racing with the actual set-up preparation before/after the race or during testing. Actually the F1 drivers are there for a reason and they have huge inputs in the actual set-up preparation/optimization of the car parameters on a track to track basis. If as a driver you cannot understand how a camber/caster/spring rate etc will change the behaviour of the car then you simply don't belong to F1. If you ever meet a track engineer this is the very first thing that he will confirm to you, how much difference the technical and feedback capability of a driver can make. History are full of drivers that made a career based on their feedback despite never being as fast as others.

And that's even without mentioning the assessment of car updates/evolution during the season, this is another level. We are getting off-topic now and there is no need to discuss it further here.
I think your over exaggerating a drivers ability to help develop a car. In technical terms.
Driver feedback is crucial yes but it can only be combined with trust in an engineer to figure what a driver feels in the car. Lewis is a world class driver but he regularly moans about his tyres being awful when they are going through a graining period and begs to get new ones by now he should understand this better. But luckily he has a team of top engineers behind him to stop his rash choices.
In terms of setup there is no point a driver being a Dr of engineering to explain fairly simple issues
Lack of front end grip in a high speed corner is normally caused by a lack of downforce so all he needs to do is explain he thinks he needs more

Same with slow corner he feels understeer on entry probably a balance or suspension issue it's the engineering teams job to give driver a new setup to test.

Also a driver knowing too much can also lead to issues if they start to go into detail about setup and disagree with the team creating friction
Driver wants a setup team want b setup driver trys b mentally doesn't like it before he is on track drivers bad tells team is rubbish they try his way goes out happy and is slower and it'd now qualification and out in q1
No I am not, F1 drivers didn’t parachute on the F1 where the armies of top engineers work. The majority went through, karting, f3 etc when most of the times they actually worked on the car and doing the set-up changes with a minimum amount of less competent engineers. You learn a lot during this period.

So trust me you will be amazed by the knowledge some of the drivers have regarding setup parameters.

Big Mangalhit
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Big Mangalhit » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:22 pm

About all the talk on how much a driver is important for car development I just wanna say that all this years problems are cause Kimi left and Alfa is now good solely cause of kimi

Proof: https://imgur.com/a/fimX4

marmer
34
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:48 am

Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by marmer » Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:35 pm

Big Mangalhit wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:22 pm
About all the talk on how much a driver is important for car development I just wanna say that all this years problems are cause Kimi left and Alfa is now good solely cause of kimi

Proof: https://imgur.com/a/fimX4
Actually I think Kimi knows quite a lot about cars I am sure I have seen footage of him fixing his rally car so maybe lol