2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

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munudeges
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by munudeges » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:53 am

vogonvader wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:43 am
First and foremost there's no telling and no source if Ferrari really did put more emphasis on engine department more than the aero departmant, at least not that I know of so I'd be glad if you shared how do you guess that?
Their so-called Technical Director, now Team Principal, has expertise on the engine side only. He's relying on hearsay and Chinese whispers from those below him. The structure they have there is a mess.

marvin78
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by marvin78 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:41 am

Do you have a drawing of their stucture? I would like to see that mess.

Phil
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Phil » Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:15 pm

godlameroso wrote:
Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:28 pm
Binotto is an engine guy first and foremost, so I'm guessing it was his push to put more emphasis on the engine and packaging than on the aero side. They figured they had a good aero advantage based on 2017 and 2018, but didn't count on Mercedes improving as they did.
I think the main issue really is that the new front-wing rules favored the Mercedes philosophy while hurting others (Ferrari & RedBull). Can't really blame Ferrari for that. Some concepts just suit certain regulations better. The big question is if Ferrari can still close the gap by getting more out of their package [vs Mercedes] while retaining an advantage on the PU side or if Mercedes's gap and superiority will continue to extend throughout the season.

Either way, I don't see Binotto as the problem or anything. The one thing I blame him though, is for creating more pressure and friction by seemingly favoring one driver before the season even started. I also think they are making far too many strategic mistakes during races - on one hand, both drivers tip toeing around each other and losing time despite being on different strategies (China) and then obviously the Monaco Q1 blunder. While Monaco is somewhat excusable, the one thing you always want to avoid at all costs is have your two drivers tangle with each other while being on different strategies and neither being in contention for a win.

Firing people now left, right and center obviously would be also wrong and more akin to Ferrari of 'old'. Still, there need to be talks and they need to think really carefully on how they want to manage their drivers going forward and how they want to maximize their points. The way things are looking, they won't be battling Mercedes for wins, but are battling Max/RedBull for 3rd. Once they realize this, they might start making less mistakes.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
#Team44 supporter

vogonvader
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by vogonvader » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:02 pm

munudeges wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:53 am
vogonvader wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:43 am
First and foremost there's no telling and no source if Ferrari really did put more emphasis on engine department more than the aero departmant, at least not that I know of so I'd be glad if you shared how do you guess that?
Their so-called Technical Director, now Team Principal, has expertise on the engine side only. He's relying on hearsay and Chinese whispers from those below him. The structure they have there is a mess.
And I'm just asking how do you possibly know that? Are there undercover Ferrari moles reporting to your person or to various press sources so thay you get to know about those hearsays and chinese whispers? How do you know the structure is a mess? How do you possibly know that just because Binotto is an engine guy he only favors engine work and that the team cannot develop a good aero platform? Is Binotto an inadequate engineer that cannot possibly understand the importance of aero so he doesn't try to improve that? Does he design all the car himself that he needs to have extensive aero knowledge? Are all the other technical directors or team principals apart from Ferrari, experts on both aero and engine departments? Do Aldo Costa and James Allison and any other executive at Mercedes have extensive knowledge about both aero and engine structures so that they can build a strong car?

godlameroso
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by godlameroso » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:47 pm

Why is Ferrari considering bringing back Simone Resta from Alfa if they're in such good shape?
The height of cultivation is really nothing special. It is merely simplicity; the ability to express the utmost with the minimum. Mr.Lee

devra
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by devra » Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:48 pm

vogonvader wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:02 pm
Are all the other technical directors or team principals apart from Ferrari, experts on both aero and engine departments? Do Aldo Costa and James Allison and any other executive at Mercedes have extensive knowledge about both aero and engine structures so that they can build a strong car?
Probably not, which is why they also have Andy Cowell as TD of HPP. At Ferrari, looks like 3 executive jobs (Team principal, chassis technical director and engine technical director) are in the hands of only one guy. Except being some kind of superhero and be able to work 50h a day to cover these three positions, I don't really see how it can work.

wickedz50
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by wickedz50 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:49 pm

devra wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:48 pm
vogonvader wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:02 pm
Are all the other technical directors or team principals apart from Ferrari, experts on both aero and engine departments? Do Aldo Costa and James Allison and any other executive at Mercedes have extensive knowledge about both aero and engine structures so that they can build a strong car?
Probably not, which is why they also have Andy Cowell as TD of HPP. At Ferrari, looks like 3 executive jobs (Team principal, chassis technical director and engine technical director) are in the hands of only one guy. Except being some kind of superhero and be able to work 50h a day to cover these three positions, I don't really see how it can work.
[/quote

It really have not worked so far...is Ferrari short on funds? any personnel freeze at Fiat? if you have enough funds to throw to revive the winning legend then getting 3 good people for the job should be easy, why overwork one person and frustrate things ...in the end one thing is for sure...Binnoto will quit ..and then what will Ferrari do?

iotar__
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by iotar__ » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:09 pm

devra wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:48 pm
vogonvader wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:02 pm
Are all the other technical directors or team principals apart from Ferrari, experts on both aero and engine departments? Do Aldo Costa and James Allison and any other executive at Mercedes have extensive knowledge about both aero and engine structures so that they can build a strong car?
Probably not, which is why they also have Andy Cowell as TD of HPP. At Ferrari, looks like 3 executive jobs (Team principal, chassis technical director and engine technical director) are in the hands of only one guy. Except being some kind of superhero and be able to work 50h a day to cover these three positions, I don't really see how it can work.
Just read it so copy/paste (Motorsport.com, it redirects to local so no link):
Enrico Cardile - chassis
David Sanchez - aero
Enrico Gualtieri - engine
Laurent Mekies - track/sporting side
Aka flatter decision making structure.

It's all meaningless anyway, if you win everything is perfect, if you don't it's not because of streamlining or not strong enough leadership. Wolff was rubbish at Williams and perfect at Mercedes, or rather X00 million, engine poeple and lack of competition solved his flaws =P~ .

I've been saying it for a long time, Mercedes simply outspent and outdeveloped the likes of Red Bull. Their aero department is twice (or something like that) as big as RB's (Newey) and can focus on current car and future rule changes simoultanesly. That's why they were whinging about FW changes or 2021. Perhaps Ferrari are still catching up and IMO are close enough considering 2014 starting point.

Slo Poke
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Slo Poke » Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:50 pm

Just a quick query. What does this David Sanchez fella know concerning class three levers, that Archimedes didn’t?

Xwang
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Xwang » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:03 pm

iotar__ wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:09 pm

I've been saying it for a long time, Mercedes simply outspent and outdeveloped the likes of Red Bull. Their aero department is twice (or something like that) as big as RB's (Newey) and can focus on current car and future rule changes simoultanesly. That's why they were whinging about FW changes or 2021. Perhaps Ferrari are still catching up and IMO are close enough considering 2014 starting point.
Sorry, but since there is a limit on how much aero tunnel and CFD a team can use, it seems to me that having more people and spending more shouldn't permit a team to have a better aero (if every teams uses the maximum allowable amount of wind tunnel and CFD specified by rules). Is it correct?
A team can outspend and outdevelop another team only if they have a more "efficient" way of working (if they are able to extract more data from a given wind tunnel time or a given number of CFD megaflops) and in that case having more people seems useful.
If otherwise the "efficiency" of aero research is preatty the same for each team and every team uses all allowable by rules wind tunnel/CFD, doubling aero staff seems a way to have half of their time turning thumbs waiting for the availability of wind tunner/CFD. Do you agree?

GPR -A
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by GPR -A » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:19 pm

iotar__ wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:09 pm
I've been saying it for a long time, Mercedes simply outspent and outdeveloped the likes of Red Bull. Their aero department is twice (or something like that) as big as RB's (Newey) and can focus on current car and future rule changes simoultanesly. That's why they were whinging about FW changes or 2021. Perhaps Ferrari are still catching up and IMO are close enough considering 2014 starting point.
You need to first check who rejected the RRA (resource restriction agreement), which Brawn was pushing hard in 2011 to 2012. It was RB, Ferrari and McLaren who didn't support. The primary reason why Daimler was interested to buy Brawn, was because it was cheap, small and efficient team. When RRA wasn't going anywhere, Brawn managed to convince Daimler to invest further to accomplish success. For anyone to blame Mercedes on spending, you first need to question why RRA didn't get support.

If money could have bought success then Totota should have been the most successful team in F1.

dans79
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Location: USA

Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by dans79 » Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:54 pm

Xwang wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:03 pm
A team can outspend and outdevelop another team only if they have a more "efficient" way of working (if they are able to extract more data from a given wind tunnel time or a given number of CFD megaflops) and in that case having more people seems useful.
It would be hilarious if we find out 20 years form now that the reason Mercedes has been so good, is because they had the best developers. They wrote more computationally efficient code and thus spent less processing time to run a given simulation. That would allow them to run more simulations than other teams and gain an advantage.

vogonvader
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by vogonvader » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:38 pm

Vettel's "open bill" with Formula 1
Resignation after the season 2019?


Are you kidding me? Are you serious when you say that! Sebastian Vettel has vigorously denied rumors before the Canadian Grand Prix. He asserts: "I am very hungry and have an account left here, which is the only thing that counts for me: to win with Ferrari, that's what we work for."

Due to the current situation, he could not finish his career, after all, he had great plans with Ferrari. "You can add one and one together, we still have something to do", says Vettel. google translated
I hope this statement ends the heated arguments a bit.

https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... 1-19060609

Pany
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Pany » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:57 pm

Do you really believe top teams don't make secret simulations in one of thousands computation lab around the world? The same applies also to some sort of aero tests in smaller scale tunnels
vogonvader wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:38 pm
Vettel's "open bill" with Formula 1
Resignation after the season 2019?


Are you kidding me? Are you serious when you say that! Sebastian Vettel has vigorously denied rumors before the Canadian Grand Prix. He asserts: "I am very hungry and have an account left here, which is the only thing that counts for me: to win with Ferrari, that's what we work for."

Due to the current situation, he could not finish his career, after all, he had great plans with Ferrari. "You can add one and one together, we still have something to do", says Vettel. google translated
I hope this statement ends the heated arguments a bit.

https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... 1-19060609

Zynerji
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Re: 2019 Scuderia Ferrari F1 Team

Post by Zynerji » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:58 pm

dans79 wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:54 pm
Xwang wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:03 pm
A team can outspend and outdevelop another team only if they have a more "efficient" way of working (if they are able to extract more data from a given wind tunnel time or a given number of CFD megaflops) and in that case having more people seems useful.
It would be hilarious if we find out 20 years form now that the reason Mercedes has been so good, is because they had the best developers. They wrote more computationally efficient code and thus spent less processing time to run a given simulation. That would allow them to run more simulations than other teams and gain an advantage.

Genetic algorithms running trillions of generative shape designs to train a neutral network allows the AI to be the real car designer.

I feel that this Merc era has a lot of foundation in this area, and that it specifically started with their saw-edge barge boards.