[ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

[Sevach]

You don't become a 4 time world champion by obeying team orders that are against you. Vettel was not Ferraris biggest problem. Ferraris biggest problem was some aspects of the car. and that Mercedes was better in many fields.

Really? 2017 and 2018 Ferrari had really good car, almost equal and faster in most races and still they didnt win coz
Was it because
a. Poor car
b. Faster opposition
c. Lack of No.1 status
d. Spinning

I always admired Vettel, no one can have 50 odd wins and 4 WDC without having some talent
but the last few years ferrari could have been 2 times champions if it was a consistent and error free Vettel
Maybe many have forgotten but this should refresh their memory

Personally i would split 2017 and 2018.
In 2017 late season reliability hurt a lot more than "Vettel mistakes" which amounted to the very arguable Singapore start.
The car also wasn't quite as fast as the Merc on most tracks.

In 2018 the Vettel did make a lot more mistakes, though keep in mind Ferrari also lost their way with development, i'd say they had the edge until Monza but then updates stopped working and they didn't even know what was hurting their performance.

[Sevach]

I don't remember Hamilton ever letting Rosberg through, i remember him refusing to comply despite the team telling him Nico would stop again.

Was that the one where he said "I'm not slowing down for him, if he catches me I'll let him through"? If so I can understand that one, much as I can with Vettel when he said a similar thing about Leclrec having to get up to him and make the pass (which Leclerc couldn't do).

Fair enough, you think both are in the right while i lean more towards both were being kinda selfish.

[alexx_88]

I don't think it's fair to compare the mistakes of one person with the mistakes of the hundreds that work in the team. They each compare to their peers. So vettel shouldn't be compared to the engineer who does his best to design the lightest possible intake manifold, but with a person doing the same job as him and is paid similarly. Those would be verstapen, Hamilton or even ricciardo. And all 3 did less mistakes than him in those 2 seasons. He seems like a good guy outside the car and really genuine with some fans, but that doesn't cut it when you're operating at the absolute pinnacle of the sport.

In 2019 the team probably expected that Charles will take a few months to find his feet, during which vettel would rack up some good points and make it easy to justify any team orders going forward.

[Just_a_fan]

I don't remember Hamilton ever letting Rosberg through, i remember him refusing to comply despite the team telling him Nico would stop again.

Was that the one where he said "I'm not slowing down for him, if he catches me I'll let him through"? If so I can understand that one, much as I can with Vettel when he said a similar thing about Leclrec having to get up to him and make the pass (which Leclerc couldn't do).

Fair enough, you think both are in the right while i lean more towards both were being kinda selfish.

At least we're both self-consistent even if we don't agree.

[Sevach]

but with a person doing the same job as him and is paid similarly. Those would be verstapen, Hamilton or even ricciardo. And all 3 did less mistakes than him in those 2 seasons.

I don't think that's correct, Verstappen has made plenty of mistakes the last couple of years, but because he was never the championship leader or expected to win everybody forgot.
For the record i think Max is becoming smarter now, better understanding of when to fight when to live to fight another day.
At one point Hamilton was like Max, "i don't brake for anyone" which led to collisions with the Maldonados of the world.
He seems to have mastered the "fight only when it's worth it" these days.

Same thing applies to Charles last year, plenty of dumb moments which no one cared because, A-the car wasn't quite good enough last season, B-He was the happy go lucky kid taking it to the 4 time world champion.
I fear those days are over, now the spotlight is firmly on him.

I think Vettel was pretty spotless in 2017, got caught in a freak accident which people who always thought he was a fraud were happy to blame him.
2018 and 2019 not so much, he did unravel with the situation.

[Jolle]

but with a person doing the same job as him and is paid similarly. Those would be verstapen, Hamilton or even ricciardo. And all 3 did less mistakes than him in those 2 seasons.

I don't think that's correct, Verstappen has made plenty of mistakes the last couple of years, but because he was never the championship leader or expected to win everybody forgot.
For the record i think Max is becoming smarter now, better understanding of when to fight when to live to fight another day.
At one point Hamilton was like Max, "i don't brake for anyone" which led to collisions with the Maldonados of the world.
He seems to have mastered the "fight only when it's worth it" these days.

Same thing applies to Charles last year, plenty of dumb moments which no one cared because, A-the car wasn't quite good enough last season, B-He was the happy go lucky kid taking it to the 4 time world champion.
I fear those days are over, now the spotlight is firmly on him.

I think Vettel was pretty spotless in 2017, got caught in a freak accident which people who always thought he was a fraud were happy to blame him.
2018 and 2019 not so much, he did unravel with the situation.

Uhm... the famous “should have been removed from the grid for at least a few races” incident at Baku was in 2017 if I’m not mistaken? Or the “I’ll just cut across track” Singapore, taking out the whole team.

Not his worst year, but far from WC worthy.

[Sevach]

Please, Vettel took to the middle of the track, which is a pretty standard and natural move when you start on the outside, and people act like he chopped Verstappen into the wall...
Somehow Max touching Kimi and Kimi going into Vettel is all Vettel's fault.

No excuses for Baku he did get off light.

[sosic2121]

Please, Vettel took to the middle of the track, which is a pretty standard and natural move when you start on the outside, and people act like he chopped Verstappen into the wall...
Somehow Max touching Kimi and Kimi going into Vettel is all Vettel's fault.

No excuses for Baku he did get off light.

I also feel that Vettel is needlessly crucified for Singapore incident. Especially considering all the facts, like championship situation, car performance situation, Verstappen situation.
Vettel had to win and Max basically said he would put Seb into the wall in T1. Seb simply had to be clear P1 before T1.

On the other hand in Baku he dropped the ball.

[Jolle]

Nah, he’s not driving into anyone. The rest just didn’t get out of his way.



And then we have that incident with stroll plus the first lap in Mexico.
2017 was a not a good year to be Vettel.

[Just_a_fan]

Please, Vettel took to the middle of the track, which is a pretty standard and natural move when you start on the outside, and people act like he chopped Verstappen into the wall...
Somehow Max touching Kimi and Kimi going into Vettel is all Vettel's fault.

No excuses for Baku he did get off light.

He moved across the block Verstappen having not had a great start. That's fair enough, normally, but what Seb didn't know/realise is that Kimi had a blindingly good start. Which meant that as Max felt the squeeze from Seb, he had nowhere to go on his left. I think Max may have been concentrating on Seb and also not noticed Kimi until it was too late. Whatever, it was started by Seb having the least good start of the three and then trying to block Max. I'd say it's 25% Seb, 75% "bad luck" really.

[jumpingfish]

Who wants - watch the video on 0.25 speed from all angles. Vettel didn't even touch Verstappen at that situation in 2017. Yes Vettel moved to the left side but it is not forbidden for drivers who start from pole and at that moment (Kimi's rear wheel touched Max's front wheel) there was enough place for cars. From 0:03 to 0:04 we can see how Max moved to the left side when he noticed how Seb moved to the left side also. At that moment Kimi touched Max and the race was over for all cars who were involved. I don't want to say it's Kimi's, or it's Verstappen's or it's Seb's mistake - no one of them but here is the difference between Hamilton and Vettel: Lewis is blessed and Seb is not.

"The stewards examined video evidence and heard from Sebastian Vettel, the driver of Car 5, Kimi Raikkonen, the driver of Car 7, Max Verstappen, the driver of Car 33 and the team representatives," a stewards statement said. "The Stewards consider that no driver was found to have been wholly or predominantly to blame for the incident and will therefore take no further action."

In Baku it was 100% Vettel's mistake but even with that Vettel got more points than Hamilton. If someone begins to count points which Seb lost in Baku after penalty then he also must count points that Lewis lost because his headrest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2T1_VrTcoo

[Jolle]

Who wants - watch the video on 0.25 speed from all angles. Vettel didn't even touch Verstappen at that situation in 2017. Yes Vettel moved to the left side but it is not forbidden for drivers who start from pole and at that moment (Kimi's rear wheel touched Max's front wheel) there was enough place for cars. From 0:03 to 0:04 we can see how Max moved to the left side when he noticed how Seb moved to the left side also. At that moment Kimi touched Max and the race was over for all cars who were involved. I don't want to say it's Kimi's, or it's Verstappen's or it's Seb's mistake - no one of them but here is the difference between Hamilton and Vettel: Lewis is blessed and Seb is not.

"The stewards examined video evidence and heard from Sebastian Vettel, the driver of Car 5, Kimi Raikkonen, the driver of Car 7, Max Verstappen, the driver of Car 33 and the team representatives," a stewards statement said. "The Stewards consider that no driver was found to have been wholly or predominantly to blame for the incident and will therefore take no further action."

In Baku it was 100% Vettel's mistake but even with that Vettel got more points than Hamilton. If someone begins to count points which Seb lost in Baku after penalty then he also must count points that Lewis lost because his headrest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2T1_VrTcoo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2T1_VrTcoo

The best view might even be at the end of that video, from Hulkenberg his cam. You see all the drivers taking caution because, well.. there are other cars around and you see one tail light going from right to left, like he’s the only one on track.

This is something that has happened to Vettel more then once, not aware that a race involves other drivers and that you have to react to them. On multiple occasions the contact was because someone was on the racing line he demanded or claimed. The worst part after that, blaming the other driver for being there.

For me, the Singapore start crash pretty much sums up Vettel’s weak spot as a driver.

[TAG]

"I think sometimes Seb forgets that where the back of his helmet is is not where the back of his car is" Mark Webber

[siskue2005]

Just looking back on this statement from Binotto... I release one has to read between the line to find out what really went on why Vettel was sacked...

"We closed a cycle with Sebastian. Sebastian has been working in our team for six years.

Interpretation:
Times up, bub! You failed to win the WDC. In the true Mafia way.. you are out..like Monty, Matiachi and Arrivabene!

I admire Sebastian, I admire him as a person and as a professional pilot. I hold him in great esteem.

Interpretation:
Not Personal. Ees business!

Beyond that, over the last weeks, the world has changed, not only from an economic point of view, but also from a technical and sporting point of view.

Interpretation:
This guy has been a poor value for money marketing wise. We are in the social media age and he isn't even on Instagram! But then again thank God because he has a dirty mouth. He dissed head Ferrari International assistant, Charlie! Remember that!

There are challenges ahead, and obstacles which are going to be difficult.

Interpretation:
Our car is a dog, and we will have to cheat again to make our engine faster. We need to find away to go around the budget regulations!

We are laying the foundations for our future, and we want to have a specific perspective. We talked with Sebastian, and we found out we didn't share the same goals, short or long term goals."

Sebastian has refused to let our Barbers cut his hair since 2017 and now he looks like a middle aged Macualay Culkin. No matter how much we tell him, he is not as good looking as Charles and his haircut sucks, he refuses to let us groom him. Imagine how he will look in two years?! This is not good for our image!

[jumpingfish]

Who wants - watch the video on 0.25 speed from all angles. Vettel didn't even touch Verstappen at that situation in 2017. Yes Vettel moved to the left side but it is not forbidden for drivers who start from pole and at that moment (Kimi's rear wheel touched Max's front wheel) there was enough place for cars. From 0:03 to 0:04 we can see how Max moved to the left side when he noticed how Seb moved to the left side also. At that moment Kimi touched Max and the race was over for all cars who were involved. I don't want to say it's Kimi's, or it's Verstappen's or it's Seb's mistake - no one of them but here is the difference between Hamilton and Vettel: Lewis is blessed and Seb is not.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2T1_VrTcoo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2T1_VrTcoo

The best view might even be at the end of that video, from Hulkenberg his cam. You see all the drivers taking caution because, well.. there are other cars around and you see one tail light going from right to left, like he’s the only one on track.

This is something that has happened to Vettel more then once, not aware that a race involves other drivers and that you have to react to them. On multiple occasions the contact was because someone was on the racing line he demanded or claimed. The worst part after that, blaming the other driver for being there.

For me, the Singapore start crash pretty much sums up Vettel’s weak spot as a driver.

I can agree with you about the crash in Brazil 2019, it was Seb fault but in Singapore.. uh no I can't. It's absolutely normal when polesitter starts to cross the lines. If there was no Kimi - Seb could successfully close the racing line and save his lead position in that race but sht happens. But again - it's 100% not Kimi's mistake, he made super start.