[ 2020 ] Scuderia Ferrari - Ferrari

[alexx_88]

If there was no Kimi - Seb could successfully close the racing line and save his lead position in that race but sht happens. But again - it's 100% not Kimi's mistake, he made super start.

How is that a valid excuse even for a rookie driver, not to mention a 4x WDC? People that move across to cut others off normally do it either slowly or after they've cleared them, they don't just vigorously move across the entire track hoping that the other drivers see them and yield.

[jumpingfish]

If there was no Kimi - Seb could successfully close the racing line and save his lead position in that race but sht happens. But again - it's 100% not Kimi's mistake, he made super start.

How is that a valid excuse even for a rookie driver, not to mention a 4x WDC? People that move across to cut others off normally do it either slowly or after they've cleared them, they don't just vigorously move across the entire track hoping that the other drivers see them and yield.

Same situation - Ham moved to the left, Kimi also moved to the left, but imagine if there was someone at that moment who tried to overtake Kimi and he didn't notice him? Ham did it slowly?

[siskue2005]

Just compare the images
From first to second image its just 4 seconds
Look how far to his left Vettel moved, that too in a damp track



As you can see that this was unnecessarily aggressive move from Vettel..
He had a bad start and he realized this very late and made a last ditch move to block Max, but with Kimi having a great start everything went down the drain.

Why everyone was so critical about vettel in that race is
1. His main rival was in 5th position
2. The Championship standing was just 238 Lewis and 235 Vettel before this race
3. Even if he had let Max through, still he would have got good haul of points over Lewis as Merc were too slow and didnot have the pace of redbull and ferrari
4. And still he did an unnecessary aggressive move (considering the situation) should have played the percentage

For example the very next race Lewis was leading and he just let Max through in Malaysia, he was looking at the big picture

So i would say it was 75% Vettel's fault and if u look at championship picture then 100%, as such moves are were it is won or lost

Same kind of example in 2012 Alonso Suzuka race (unnecessary aggressive movement which lost him the WDC)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaoC9LGv_0I

[siskue2005]

Please, Vettel took to the middle of the track, which is a pretty standard and natural move when you start on the outside, and people act like he chopped Verstappen into the wall...
Somehow Max touching Kimi and Kimi going into Vettel is all Vettel's fault.

No excuses for Baku he did get off light.

I also feel that Vettel is needlessly crucified for Singapore incident. Especially considering all the facts, like championship situation, car performance situation, Verstappen situation.
Vettel had to win and Max basically said he would put Seb into the wall in T1. Seb simply had to be clear P1 before T1.

On the other hand in Baku he dropped the ball.

No he didnot need to win that race
The standings were
Lewis 238
Vettel 235
before the Singapore gp.. there were only 6 races left, and in that they were fast in every race
the reliability issues in 2 races could be argued as Ferrari trying desperately to win back the lost points
and Vettel couldn't know in advance the car issues coming next races!

[siskue2005]

If there was no Kimi - Seb could successfully close the racing line and save his lead position in that race but sht happens. But again - it's 100% not Kimi's mistake, he made super start.

How is that a valid excuse even for a rookie driver, not to mention a 4x WDC? People that move across to cut others off normally do it either slowly or after they've cleared them, they don't just vigorously move across the entire track hoping that the other drivers see them and yield.

Same situation - Ham moved to the left, Kimi also moved to the left, but imagine if there was someone at that moment who tried to overtake Kimi and he didn't notice him? Ham did it slowly?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNwPpqaLE60

The difference to Lewis' move to Vettel's is that Lewis stopped moving to his left when he saw kimi was there and it was on a dry track where the grip is predictable, unlike Vettel who kept on moving aggressively to his left to crowd Max to a corner on a damp track.

The Chop is a risky move i agree
Schuamcher Chop was even more aggressive
but atleast Schumacher had great peripheral view judgment, so he has never crashed doing his chops

[Sevach]

Please, Vettel took to the middle of the track, which is a pretty standard and natural move when you start on the outside, and people act like he chopped Verstappen into the wall...
Somehow Max touching Kimi and Kimi going into Vettel is all Vettel's fault.

No excuses for Baku he did get off light.

He moved across the block Verstappen having not had a great start. That's fair enough, normally, but what Seb didn't know/realise is that Kimi had a blindingly good start. Which meant that as Max felt the squeeze from Seb, he had nowhere to go on his left. I think Max may have been concentrating on Seb and also not noticed Kimi until it was too late. Whatever, it was started by Seb having the least good start of the three and then trying to block Max. I'd say it's 25% Seb, 75% "bad luck" really.

First let me make it perfectly clear that i think it was a racing accident and i don't think any punishment should've been dolled out (and the stewards agree with me, whatever that's worth right...).

I think the one person who could've avoided it all was... Max.
Seb's getaway was less than ideal but not so bad that Max was about to fly past him, so he moved into a defensive position, natural move, not overly aggressive, it's all fine here.

Kimi meanwhile is going like a rocket on the inside of Max and easily breazes past.
Max has nothing to gain now, he can't really outbrake Seb down the inside anymore because Kimi will be fully ahead of him holding the inside line when they reach the braking zone.
His best option at this point would be to lift and try to reset around the outside to take a better line through the first couple of corners and pressure the Ferraris coming out of them.

I think he does lift just before the crash, but it was too late, your point that he might've been too focussed on Seb might be correct.

It happened, Hamilton went on to win where he was suppoused to lose, it sucked... but it's still a freak accident and i can't crucify the guy (any of them) for that, what else can be said?

[jumpingfish]

How is that a valid excuse even for a rookie driver, not to mention a 4x WDC? People that move across to cut others off normally do it either slowly or after they've cleared them, they don't just vigorously move across the entire track hoping that the other drivers see them and yield.

Same situation - Ham moved to the left, Kimi also moved to the left, but imagine if there was someone at that moment who tried to overtake Kimi and he didn't notice him? Ham did it slowly?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNwPpqaLE60

The difference to Lewis' move to Vettel's is that Lewis stopped moving to his left when he saw kimi was there and it was on a dry track where the grip is predictable, unlike Vettel who kept on moving aggressively to his left to crowd Max to a corner on a damp track.

The Chop is a risky move i agree
Schuamcher Chop was even more aggressive
but atleast Schumacher had great peripheral view judgment, so he has never crashed doing his chops

Yes, it's true that Hamilton stopped to move to the left when he saw Kimi (sad can't find onboard of his start) and Kimi isn't behind Ham, he is on the side, and from Vettel's onboard do you see someone near him? Ham left enough space for the car, Vettel also left enough space for Max but not for rapid Kimi
But I totally agree that Seb doesn't feel his car sizes as Webber said on the previous page and Schumacher had far better sense how to put his car on the track
upd. After watching again - Vettel didn't left enough space and closed the door right near the Max, way more aggresive than Ham, this aggresive move provocated the collision cause Verstappen could not disappear

[ENGINE TUNER]

Just looking back on this statement from Binotto... I release one has to read between the line to find out what really went on why Vettel was sacked...

"We closed a cycle with Sebastian. Sebastian has been working in our team for six years.

Interpretation:
Times up, bub! You failed to win the WDC. In the true Mafia way.. you are out..like Monty, Matiachi and Arrivabene!

I admire Sebastian, I admire him as a person and as a professional pilot. I hold him in great esteem.

Interpretation:
Not Personal. Ees business!

Beyond that, over the last weeks, the world has changed, not only from an economic point of view, but also from a technical and sporting point of view.

Interpretation:
This guy has been a poor value for money marketing wise. We are in the social media age and he isn't even on Instagram! But then again thank God because he has a dirty mouth. He dissed head Ferrari International assistant, Charlie! Remember that!

There are challenges ahead, and obstacles which are going to be difficult.

Interpretation:
Our car is a dog, and we will have to cheat again to make our engine faster. We need to find away to go around the budget regulations!

We are laying the foundations for our future, and we want to have a specific perspective. We talked with Sebastian, and we found out we didn't share the same goals, short or long term goals."

Sebastian has refused to let our Barbers cut his hair since 2017 and now he looks like a middle aged Macualay Culkin. No matter how much we tell him, he is not as good looking as Charles and his haircut sucks, he refuses to let us groom him. Imagine how he will look in two years?! This is not good for our image!

You sir are gifted and should apply to the FIA to be a translator between them and Ferrari.

[ENGINE TUNER]

Who wants - watch the video on 0.25 speed from all angles. Vettel didn't even touch Verstappen at that situation in 2017. Yes Vettel moved to the left side but it is not forbidden for drivers who start from pole and at that moment (Kimi's rear wheel touched Max's front wheel) there was enough place for cars. From 0:03 to 0:04 we can see how Max moved to the left side when he noticed how Seb moved to the left side also. At that moment Kimi touched Max and the race was over for all cars who were involved. I don't want to say it's Kimi's, or it's Verstappen's or it's Seb's mistake - no one of them but here is the difference between Hamilton and Vettel: Lewis is blessed and Seb is not.

"The stewards examined video evidence and heard from Sebastian Vettel, the driver of Car 5, Kimi Raikkonen, the driver of Car 7, Max Verstappen, the driver of Car 33 and the team representatives," a stewards statement said. "The Stewards consider that no driver was found to have been wholly or predominantly to blame for the incident and will therefore take no further action."

In Baku it was 100% Vettel's mistake but even with that Vettel got more points than Hamilton. If someone begins to count points which Seb lost in Baku after penalty then he also must count points that Lewis lost because his headrest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2T1_VrTcoo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2T1_VrTcoo

The best view might even be at the end of that video, from Hulkenberg his cam. You see all the drivers taking caution because, well.. there are other cars around and you see one tail light going from right to left, like he’s the only one on track.

This is something that has happened to Vettel more then once, not aware that a race involves other drivers and that you have to react to them. On multiple occasions the contact was because someone was on the racing line he demanded or claimed. The worst part after that, blaming the other driver for being there.

For me, the Singapore start crash pretty much sums up Vettel’s weak spot as a driver.

Yep, 100% Vettel's fault, and it totally sums up his on track arrogance. Can anyone name another driver who has crashed into other cars ON THE STRAIGHT as much as Vettel? You can't

[sosic2121]

Please, Vettel took to the middle of the track, which is a pretty standard and natural move when you start on the outside, and people act like he chopped Verstappen into the wall...
Somehow Max touching Kimi and Kimi going into Vettel is all Vettel's fault.

No excuses for Baku he did get off light.

I also feel that Vettel is needlessly crucified for Singapore incident. Especially considering all the facts, like championship situation, car performance situation, Verstappen situation.
Vettel had to win and Max basically said he would put Seb into the wall in T1. Seb simply had to be clear P1 before T1.

On the other hand in Baku he dropped the ball.

No he didnot need to win that race
The standings were
Lewis 238
Vettel 235
before the Singapore gp.. there were only 6 races left, and in that they were fast in every race
the reliability issues in 2 races could be argued as Ferrari trying desperately to win back the lost points
and Vettel couldn't know in advance the car issues coming next races!

At the moment it was very likely that ferrari will not be able to win any other race after Singapore. It was imperative that Seb wins and to do that he needed to be P1 in T1. He knew Max would be super aggressive in T1 and Seb had the outside.

[sosic2121]

Who wants - watch the video on 0.25 speed from all angles. Vettel didn't even touch Verstappen at that situation in 2017. Yes Vettel moved to the left side but it is not forbidden for drivers who start from pole and at that moment (Kimi's rear wheel touched Max's front wheel) there was enough place for cars. From 0:03 to 0:04 we can see how Max moved to the left side when he noticed how Seb moved to the left side also. At that moment Kimi touched Max and the race was over for all cars who were involved. I don't want to say it's Kimi's, or it's Verstappen's or it's Seb's mistake - no one of them but here is the difference between Hamilton and Vettel: Lewis is blessed and Seb is not.

"The stewards examined video evidence and heard from Sebastian Vettel, the driver of Car 5, Kimi Raikkonen, the driver of Car 7, Max Verstappen, the driver of Car 33 and the team representatives," a stewards statement said. "The Stewards consider that no driver was found to have been wholly or predominantly to blame for the incident and will therefore take no further action."

In Baku it was 100% Vettel's mistake but even with that Vettel got more points than Hamilton. If someone begins to count points which Seb lost in Baku after penalty then he also must count points that Lewis lost because his headrest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2T1_VrTcoo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2T1_VrTcoo

The best view might even be at the end of that video, from Hulkenberg his cam. You see all the drivers taking caution because, well.. there are other cars around and you see one tail light going from right to left, like he’s the only one on track.

This is something that has happened to Vettel more then once, not aware that a race involves other drivers and that you have to react to them. On multiple occasions the contact was because someone was on the racing line he demanded or claimed. The worst part after that, blaming the other driver for being there.

For me, the Singapore start crash pretty much sums up Vettel’s weak spot as a driver.

Yep, 100% Vettel's fault, and it totally sums up his on track arrogance. Can anyone name another driver who has crashed into other cars ON THE STRAIGHT as much as Vettel? You can't

Your suggest arrogance, yet I only notice
hate...

[siskue2005]

I also feel that Vettel is needlessly crucified for Singapore incident. Especially considering all the facts, like championship situation, car performance situation, Verstappen situation.
Vettel had to win and Max basically said he would put Seb into the wall in T1. Seb simply had to be clear P1 before T1.

On the other hand in Baku he dropped the ball.

No he didnot need to win that race
The standings were
Lewis 238
Vettel 235
before the Singapore gp.. there were only 6 races left, and in that they were fast in every race
the reliability issues in 2 races could be argued as Ferrari trying desperately to win back the lost points
and Vettel couldn't know in advance the car issues coming next races!

At the moment it was very likely that ferrari will not be able to win any other race after Singapore. It was imperative that Seb wins and to do that he needed to be P1 in T1. He knew Max would be super aggressive in T1 and Seb had the outside.

But it definitely was not do or die situation...... so it was a bit premature to blow it off in the singapore gp itself; there were 175 points available! All he needed to do was beat Lewis in every race from then on, no matter where they finished

Example see how Lewis let Max overtake him easily without any fight the next race at Malaysia; even Merc didnot have gaurentee that they would win the next races (thats how the field was competitive in 2017 end). That is how you become a champion

[sosic2121]

No he didnot need to win that race
The standings were
Lewis 238
Vettel 235
before the Singapore gp.. there were only 6 races left, and in that they were fast in every race
the reliability issues in 2 races could be argued as Ferrari trying desperately to win back the lost points
and Vettel couldn't know in advance the car issues coming next races!

At the moment it was very likely that ferrari will not be able to win any other race after Singapore. It was imperative that Seb wins and to do that he needed to be P1 in T1. He knew Max would be super aggressive in T1 and Seb had the outside.

But it definitely was not do or die situation...... so it was a bit premature to blow it off in the singapore gp itself; there were 175 points available! All he needed to do was beat Lewis in every race from then on, no matter where they finished

Absolutely impossible task considering how 2017 season went so far.
Only race from 6 remaining that Seb could hope to out qualify Lewis was Mexico.
Mercedes had upper hand in Q and overtaking was extremely hard.

Also, Seb had no way of knowing that Kimi had incredible start.

[ENGINE TUNER]

The best view might even be at the end of that video, from Hulkenberg his cam. You see all the drivers taking caution because, well.. there are other cars around and you see one tail light going from right to left, like he’s the only one on track.

This is something that has happened to Vettel more then once, not aware that a race involves other drivers and that you have to react to them. On multiple occasions the contact was because someone was on the racing line he demanded or claimed. The worst part after that, blaming the other driver for being there.

For me, the Singapore start crash pretty much sums up Vettel’s weak spot as a driver.

Yep, 100% Vettel's fault, and it totally sums up his on track arrogance. Can anyone name another driver who has crashed into other cars ON THE STRAIGHT as much as Vettel? You can't

Your suggest arrogance, yet I only notice
hate...

I see that you can't answer the question I posed. What other driver has crashed so much ON THE STRAIGHT

VET attempting to push other drivers wide and dictate their path is the utmost in on track arrogance. There is a pattern to many if his on track incidents.

[siskue2005]

At the moment it was very likely that ferrari will not be able to win any other race after Singapore. It was imperative that Seb wins and to do that he needed to be P1 in T1. He knew Max would be super aggressive in T1 and Seb had the outside.

But it definitely was not do or die situation...... so it was a bit premature to blow it off in the singapore gp itself; there were 175 points available! All he needed to do was beat Lewis in every race from then on, no matter where they finished

Absolutely impossible task considering how 2017 season went so far.
Only race from 6 remaining that Seb could hope to out qualify Lewis was Mexico.
Mercedes had upper hand in Q and overtaking was extremely hard.

Also, Seb had no way of knowing that Kimi had incredible start.

So you are saying it was DO or DIE in singapore GP ??
No wonder he has not won any championship
And i didnt know that the race finished in the very first corner and he need to be first before the second corner to win the title!