[ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Ground Effect wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:54 pm
diffuser wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:39 pm
Re-Edited.

Here is a Fact you can't get around. You always have more bugs with a new design over improvement on a existing design. So expresssions like "I don't expect ,they've learned from the past, they've done it before" mean nothing. Fact is they'll have more "Integration" issues in 2021 than they had in 2020. Where you can make upground is if you have fewer issues with the Merc PU than the Renault PU over the increase in intergration issues. Though Renault is gonna run pretty much the same PU as this year. So I don't see that as being significan.

I'm not saying 100% that they'll have more problems. It's just very likely 70% and up.
I think it’s all down to how prepared they are for the change, how much attention they give, and understanding the magnitude of the process. They’ve had a pretty decent lead time, and Key has said they’re working extremely well with Mercedes. Red Bull fared OK last year I think, with the Honda switch. McLaren also have experience with this layout, prior to Key joining and Key also over saw the Honda switch at then STR, with the same layout. It’s obviously not a given that it’ll go swimmingly, but it’s also not a given that it won’t. I just don’t believe there must be issues, I expect them to do a better job in 2022 than in 2021, simply due to more experience and more leeway.
Plus in 2022, you fix the failures of 2021. Everytime you have a failue you analyse it and fix it.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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diffuser wrote:I think RP have a, like others said, an edge with buying Merc parts. They are ahead and they'll stay ahead (pace wise). Wether they can execute is another question. I haven't really thought about the effects of Vettel/Stroll driver combo will have. My guess is a negative effect but Vettel has surprised me in the past. He still not as good as his 4 world titles suggest but he still has ability. Even with less points from Vettel, they'll like get more points from Stroll and they will not have the loss of points from Copy gate. So they'll likely finish ahead.

I talked about why More DNFs, They'll have Integration issues. Renault Pu is integrated and you've run it for a few sseasons so you could have worked on getting even more kinks.

I think Renault to be about the same but just a little ahead because our slight tick down.


Ferrari is a really big Question mark. Can they be working on a completly new PU for 2022 and an upgraded 2020 PU for 2021? I don't think that's even allowed. So it depends on what PU they have for next year. I don't see how they could have an all new PU and not have to take tokens for it like McLaren. Like Renault I think thier new PU is said to be split turbo. I haven't followed Ferrari as closely.
If Ferrari can accommodate their new PU without chassis changes, they can install it without a penalty... Mclaren had to make changes to the chassis to install the Mercedes PU


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mwillems
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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diffuser wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:52 pm
I think RP have a, like others said, an edge with buying Merc parts. They are ahead and they'll stay ahead (pace wise). Wether they can execute is another question. I haven't really thought about the effects of Vettel/Stroll driver combo will have. My guess is a negative effect but Vettel has surprised me in the past. He still not as good as his 4 world titles suggest but he still has ability. Even with less points from Vettel, they'll like get more points from Stroll and they will not have the loss of points from Copy gate. So they'll likely finish ahead.

I talked about why More DNFs, They'll have Integration issues. Renault Pu is integrated and you've run it for a few sseasons so you could have worked on getting even more kinks.

I think Renault to be about the same but just a little ahead because our slight tick down.


Ferrari is a really big Question mark. Can they be working on a completly new PU for 2022 and an upgraded 2020 PU for 2021? I don't think that's even allowed. So it depends on what PU they have for next year. I don't see how they could have an all new PU and not have to take tokens for it like McLaren. Like Renault I think thier new PU is said to be split turbo. I haven't followed Ferrari as closely.
The driver changes will offer a significant change, more to Ferrari than anyone else I think. I feel Sainz will perform closer to Leclerc than Vettel this year, which will boost Ferrari a lot- their car has improved in the second half of the season too, although not as much as you'd have expected.

Danny Ric to Mclaren is a boost and of course, driver changes at Renault and RP, but I feel like Mclarens driver line up would be second only to Ferrari in that core group of 4 teams.

But then the changes to the floor may offer a mix up in terms of performance that could make the raw car pace a little more random. It will be interesting to see RPs solution to the floor change. Perez certainly seems to think it might be decent.

mwillems
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:16 pm
diffuser wrote:I think RP have a, like others said, an edge with buying Merc parts. They are ahead and they'll stay ahead (pace wise). Wether they can execute is another question. I haven't really thought about the effects of Vettel/Stroll driver combo will have. My guess is a negative effect but Vettel has surprised me in the past. He still not as good as his 4 world titles suggest but he still has ability. Even with less points from Vettel, they'll like get more points from Stroll and they will not have the loss of points from Copy gate. So they'll likely finish ahead.

I talked about why More DNFs, They'll have Integration issues. Renault Pu is integrated and you've run it for a few sseasons so you could have worked on getting even more kinks.

I think Renault to be about the same but just a little ahead because our slight tick down.


Ferrari is a really big Question mark. Can they be working on a completly new PU for 2022 and an upgraded 2020 PU for 2021? I don't think that's even allowed. So it depends on what PU they have for next year. I don't see how they could have an all new PU and not have to take tokens for it like McLaren. Like Renault I think thier new PU is said to be split turbo. I haven't followed Ferrari as closely.
If Ferrari can accommodate their new PU without chassis changes, they can install it without a penalty... Mclaren had to make changes to the chassis to install the Mercedes PU


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It was a wooly quote, but Ferrari have said on a few occassions that 2021 will be like 2020. Whether that is all smoke and mirrors I don't know, but they have indicated that the cars issues may continue into next year, at least in some part.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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CjC wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:04 pm
bauc wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:17 pm
Balalu wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:05 pm
The thing that worries me about the switch to Mercedes engine, is how in bed Mercedes are with Racing Point. Especially Wolf.

I have no doubt that there is a lot going on behind the scenes. Some of it is creeping out from time to time as we all can see.
Yes, I'm worried about the same, on the drivers pres conference Perez said, I wanted to stay especially knowing the car we will have next year ... so....
Yea, The pink Merc will have a suspension upgrade, a PU upgrade and half a chassis upgrade :roll: where as Mclaren will only get a PU upgrade👍🏻
i thought the chassis were frozen for the most part next year. except for mclaren, since they are swapping PU's?
did something change?

SmallSoldier
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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zoroastar wrote:
CjC wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:04 pm
bauc wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 12:17 pm
Yes, I'm worried about the same, on the drivers pres conference Perez said, I wanted to stay especially knowing the car we will have next year ... so....
Yea, The pink Merc will have a suspension upgrade, a PU upgrade and half a chassis upgrade :roll: where as Mclaren will only get a PU upgrade
i thought the chassis were frozen for the most part next year. except for mclaren, since they are swapping PU's?
did something change?
All teams have 2 tokens to make modifications to their chassis (although the 2 tokens limits a lot what you can do in between seasons)... The big advantage for RP is that they can use the 2020 Mercedes Suspension (since they purchase that part from them), therefore they will have an improvement over their current suspension (which is the Mercedes 2019 one).


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SmallSoldier
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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mwillems wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:16 pm
diffuser wrote:I think RP have a, like others said, an edge with buying Merc parts. They are ahead and they'll stay ahead (pace wise). Wether they can execute is another question. I haven't really thought about the effects of Vettel/Stroll driver combo will have. My guess is a negative effect but Vettel has surprised me in the past. He still not as good as his 4 world titles suggest but he still has ability. Even with less points from Vettel, they'll like get more points from Stroll and they will not have the loss of points from Copy gate. So they'll likely finish ahead.

I talked about why More DNFs, They'll have Integration issues. Renault Pu is integrated and you've run it for a few sseasons so you could have worked on getting even more kinks.

I think Renault to be about the same but just a little ahead because our slight tick down.


Ferrari is a really big Question mark. Can they be working on a completly new PU for 2022 and an upgraded 2020 PU for 2021? I don't think that's even allowed. So it depends on what PU they have for next year. I don't see how they could have an all new PU and not have to take tokens for it like McLaren. Like Renault I think thier new PU is said to be split turbo. I haven't followed Ferrari as closely.
If Ferrari can accommodate their new PU without chassis changes, they can install it without a penalty... Mclaren had to make changes to the chassis to install the Mercedes PU


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It was a wooly quote, but Ferrari have said on a few occassions that 2021 will be like 2020. Whether that is all smoke and mirrors I don't know, but they have indicated that the cars issues may continue into next year, at least in some part.
It’s still to be seen what Ferrari can do, but even when they are struggling more than expected this season, they have had some decent races too and they still have the one of the largest (if not the largest) budget in F1... So, it is to be expected that they will improve... How much? Remains to be seen, but most of their deficit seems to be coming from their engine and if the recover some of the loss for next year, they will probably be in contention to fight for P3 at least.


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zoroastar
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:16 am
zoroastar wrote:
CjC wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:04 pm


Yea, The pink Merc will have a suspension upgrade, a PU upgrade and half a chassis upgrade :roll: where as Mclaren will only get a PU upgrade
i thought the chassis were frozen for the most part next year. except for mclaren, since they are swapping PU's?
did something change?
All teams have 2 tokens to make modifications to their chassis (although the 2 tokens limits a lot what you can do in between seasons)... The big advantage for RP is that they can use the 2020 Mercedes Suspension (since they purchase that part from them), therefore they will have an improvement over their current suspension (which is the Mercedes 2019 one).


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how much change do you think mclaren will be allowed, given their circumstances? i know a lot will have to be put into hitting the ground running with the merc in the back, but is it possible that they could take advantage of that to improve their car compared to everyone else? ive been watching the races but havent spent as much time in here as i had in previous years :) i have some catching up to do...

mwillems
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:18 am
mwillems wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 10:16 pm

If Ferrari can accommodate their new PU without chassis changes, they can install it without a penalty... Mclaren had to make changes to the chassis to install the Mercedes PU


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It was a wooly quote, but Ferrari have said on a few occassions that 2021 will be like 2020. Whether that is all smoke and mirrors I don't know, but they have indicated that the cars issues may continue into next year, at least in some part.
It’s still to be seen what Ferrari can do, but even when they are struggling more than expected this season, they have had some decent races too and they still have the one of the largest (if not the largest) budget in F1... So, it is to be expected that they will improve... How much? Remains to be seen, but most of their deficit seems to be coming from their engine and if the recover some of the loss for next year, they will probably be in contention to fight for P3 at least.


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There is only so much they can do to the car I guess, budget or not, the rules are quite restrictive, so unless they have designed chassis changes now in readiness for next year, I can't imagine they will move on too much. I'm also yet to be convinced that Leclerc isn't able to extract more out of a car then almost every other driver on the grid and that the car actually is very poor (For a Ferrari).

I suspect that in a Mclaren this year he would have achieved more than he did at Ferrari, but that is just my opinion and until his career unfolds and sheds a little more light on his talent, we won't really know.

I'm looking forward to Leclerc v Sainz next year, sadly, I think I know the outcome.

SmallSoldier
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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zoroastar wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:16 am
zoroastar wrote: i thought the chassis were frozen for the most part next year. except for mclaren, since they are swapping PU's?
did something change?
All teams have 2 tokens to make modifications to their chassis (although the 2 tokens limits a lot what you can do in between seasons)... The big advantage for RP is that they can use the 2020 Mercedes Suspension (since they purchase that part from them), therefore they will have an improvement over their current suspension (which is the Mercedes 2019 one).


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how much change do you think mclaren will be allowed, given their circumstances? i know a lot will have to be put into hitting the ground running with the merc in the back, but is it possible that they could take advantage of that to improve their car compared to everyone else? ive been watching the races but havent spent as much time in here as i had in previous years :) i have some catching up to do...
Not really... In order for Mclaren to be allowed to change PU’s for 2021 the token system was created... Mclaren has to use their 2 tokens for the installation of the Merc engine and all changes needed “shouldn’t add additional performance”... This is the tricky part of course because there is a little bit of a grey area, but all changes are been monitored by the FIA and Mclaren needs to provide proof that not only are the changes necessary for the installation, that they also don’t provide additional advantage.

I’m sure there are a few changes that may be required and that could potentially add additional performance (for example, if the new PU architecture requires a longer wheel base), but those should be minimal... The advantage would in regards to packaging, potentially a better COG and weight distribution and of course an small improvement on power.

Since Mclaren can’t make use of any tokens for changes elsewhere in the chassis, they have used an important part of their resources to bring changes before the different deadlines (for example, the new nose)... The need to bring forward some of those parts have had a negative effect since not only their contributions aren’t maximized (bringing individual parts that are intended for a different concept, like the new nose usually don’t add performance by themselves) and it has also hampered the development of the current concept since some of the resources that could have been used to develop the MCL35 have been dedicated to speed up those parts (from design teams to manufacturing).

We are all hoping that once all the pieces of the puzzle are put together, that they will bring more performance for 2021 than what the rest of the teams are doing.


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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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mwillems wrote:
SmallSoldier wrote:
Tue Dec 01, 2020 1:18 am
mwillems wrote: It was a wooly quote, but Ferrari have said on a few occassions that 2021 will be like 2020. Whether that is all smoke and mirrors I don't know, but they have indicated that the cars issues may continue into next year, at least in some part.
It’s still to be seen what Ferrari can do, but even when they are struggling more than expected this season, they have had some decent races too and they still have the one of the largest (if not the largest) budget in F1... So, it is to be expected that they will improve... How much? Remains to be seen, but most of their deficit seems to be coming from their engine and if the recover some of the loss for next year, they will probably be in contention to fight for P3 at least.


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There is only so much they can do to the car I guess, budget or not, the rules are quite restrictive, so unless they have designed chassis changes now in readiness for next year, I can't imagine they will move on too much. I'm also yet to be convinced that Leclerc isn't able to extract more out of a car then almost every other driver on the grid and that the car actually is very poor (For a Ferrari).

I suspect that in a Mclaren this year he would have achieved more than he did at Ferrari, but that is just my opinion and until his career unfolds and sheds a little more light on his talent, we won't really know.

I'm looking forward to Leclerc v Sainz next year, sadly, I think I know the outcome.
Well... They can’t work on the 2022 concept just yet, so my guess is that they are using most of those resources for 2021 at this point... How much they can change or have changed (from a chassis perspective) that we can’t see is not known... But, I have a feeling that they will make an important jump compared to the midfield.

In regards to Leclerc vs Sainz... Everyone expects to have Leclerc on top, but Sainz is having such great performance that he may surprise everyone (just as Leclerc did last year, when everyone expected Vettel to be the one on top and by mid season, it was Leclerc who was leading Ferrari).


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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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How many laps did Carlos do on the Softs? I think he did just over 20 laps. I ask because they managed the Softs pretty well on a high degradation track.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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21 circle is even more than his segment on the medium.

Ground Effect
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Hamilton to miss Sakir due positive COVID-19 test. This could have some bearing on the fight for P3,
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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godlameroso wrote:
Mon Nov 30, 2020 4:42 pm
McLaren will be very fast in the outer loop. They have good top speed, they may have a bit of understeer in the mid and low speed corners, but they have good traction, and a slippery car.
If we measure by Mclaren's Monza pace, then on paper we should be in good rhythm here as well.
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