[ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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mwillems
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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diffuser wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:27 pm
Ground Effect wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:55 am
mwillems wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:55 am


This was originally a reply to a fanboy, but Ross Brawn made the same points this week, that RP underperformed this year and Mclaren overperformed, putting it down to them being a well oiled team. So I thought I'd post it since Darth Piekius didn't want to think we got third as much as because of others poor performance as our own decent ones.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/ross-braw ... performed/

If we are honest, we did well to keep hanging in and around third for the past few races so that when we had a lucky break we were well positioned to take it. The RP is up there with the Merc and Red Bull in terms of car quality, but you cannot say the same for us, unfortunately.
100% spot on! I dare say even Checo on his best day hasn’t gotten the best out of that car, as impressive as he’s been. It’s definitely worth a lot more than 2 podiums. There’s a reason why Seb is happy to go there, someone of his calibre and relatively young age should be thinking winning team or bust. So McLaren have done well to have kept in the fight, with all the complications of preparing for next season and testing future parts etc. But so far, RP have underachieved, no doubt about it.
I guess I'm just being the devil's advocate here but ...

Don't forget , if you give back the penality points to RP, they'd be 2 points behind. Add to that, both RP drivers have gotten covid, something that wouldn't happen in a normal year. I'd have to say they've been ATLEAST average.


It is a perception or Opinion that another driver can get more out of the car. if you beleive that RP is the 2019 Merc. Then if we look at how he compares against Hamilton 2019 Bahrain...
Sergio PEREZ   Bahrain 2020 1:28.322
Lewis Hamilton Bahrain 2019 1:28.190
Being a 10th off Hamilton when he was behind Ferrari in Q3, you know he's flat out, is pretty good.
I don't want to get drawn into the luck conversation again because it is very subjective and contentious, but I "feel" like the luck has swung around relatively evenly through the season.

Regarding the 15 points, I agree. But they have also been racing with what is likely a more advanced part then they would otherwise have had so I don't know if having designed their own part, they might have been slower enough that we would have taken 7 points away from them and to ourselves.

You could of course be entirely right in your opinion, but I do feel that the Pink Merc is sufficiently faster that it should have trounced us, and as evidence of this, I would point to Strolls lack of performance and points. Because if there was a comparable driver to Checo in the car, 3rd would most likely be wrapped up by now for RP, or very close to it.

I don't agree with you myself but I think your devils advocate is entirely appropriate.
Last edited by mwillems on Wed Dec 02, 2020 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mwillems
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Ground Effect wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:40 pm
diffuser wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:27 pm
Ground Effect wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:55 am


100% spot on! I dare say even Checo on his best day hasn’t gotten the best out of that car, as impressive as he’s been. It’s definitely worth a lot more than 2 podiums. There’s a reason why Seb is happy to go there, someone of his calibre and relatively young age should be thinking winning team or bust. So McLaren have done well to have kept in the fight, with all the complications of preparing for next season and testing future parts etc. But so far, RP have underachieved, no doubt about it.
I guess I'm just being the devil's advocate here but ...

Don't forget , if you give back the penality points to RP, they'd be 2 points behind. Add to that, both RP drivers have gotten covid, something that wouldn't happen in a normal year. I'd have to say they've been ATLEAST average.


It is a perception or Opinion that another driver can get more out of the car. if you beleive that RP is the 2019 Merc. Then if we look at how he compares against Hamilton 2019 Bahrain...
Sergio PEREZ   Bahrain 2020 1:28.322
Lewis Hamilton Bahrain 2019 1:28.190
Being a 10th off Hamilton when he was behind Ferrari in Q3, you know he's flat out, is pretty good.
That’s a fair point, but the Mercedes in Bahrain last year was at it’s earliest iteration and not as developed. Checo and Lance are driving the W10 at it’s most developed form.
One on side we aren't entirely sure how exactly like last years car it is, and the true difference in speed. On the other, that sidepod upgrade was huge, it seemed like it strapped rockets on to the back of the car for a few races, and had stroll not smashed his car up twice, Checo would have had that package two races earlier and again, it's another story as we were as fast as RP at that point. And that's an example as how the defacto No1 (sigh) Stroll impacted Checo and most likely lost him some speed and points.
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SmallSoldier
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Ground Effect wrote:
diffuser wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:27 pm
Ground Effect wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:55 am
100% spot on! I dare say even Checo on his best day hasn’t gotten the best out of that car, as impressive as he’s been. It’s definitely worth a lot more than 2 podiums. There’s a reason why Seb is happy to go there, someone of his calibre and relatively young age should be thinking winning team or bust. So McLaren have done well to have kept in the fight, with all the complications of preparing for next season and testing future parts etc. But so far, RP have underachieved, no doubt about it.
I guess I'm just being the devil's advocate here but ...

Don't forget , if you give back the penality points to RP, they'd be 2 points behind. Add to that, both RP drivers have gotten covid, something that wouldn't happen in a normal year. I'd have to say they've been ATLEAST average.


It is a perception or Opinion that another driver can get more out of the car. if you beleive that RP is the 2019 Merc. Then if we look at how he compares against Hamilton 2019 Bahrain...
Sergio PEREZ   Bahrain 2020 1:28.322
Lewis Hamilton Bahrain 2019 1:28.190
Being a 10th off Hamilton when he was behind Ferrari in Q3, you know he's flat out, is pretty good.
That’s a fair point, but the Mercedes in Bahrain last year was at it’s earliest iteration and not as developed. Checo and Lance are driving the W10 at it’s most developed form.
The analysis is interesting... But unluckily it doesn’t show the real picture... Not only are conditions different year on year at the track which will have a big effect on lap times, there are 2 big factors that have a very big impact:

Engines Modes: There was no party mode this year
Tires: 2020 tires were one step softer than 2019

Those 2 factors alone would influence the lap times enough to not make them comparable


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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 12:07 am

Here is where we disagree... You don’t always have more bugs with a new design... You “may” encounter more bugs with “may” been the key word and your probability of finding those issues is directly related to the pre-work you have perform before the installation... The fact that they have done a couple of changes recently just means that they have more information in regards to “what can go wrong” and how to avoid it.

Part of my job is overseeing CAPEX investments and their execution, we have had new equipment installation that has gone really smooth and some that have created more headaches than even our worst estimations... The fact is that just because we were installing a brand new piece of equipment / process didn’t created issues in itself, it was the execution and planning that had the biggest impact on success... Lessons learned has helped a lot also.

Can they find a lot of issues with the new installation? Yes... Is it a given that it will be the case? Not for me.


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Not saying it's a given. I suggested 70 - 80% chance. Don't forget if you're not changing you're fixing whatever issues you had. Now those fixes don't apply.

It can be done. RBR did it. Maybe that's an unfair comparison as they probably designed the STR back end the year before then upgraded it rolled it for both STR/RBR the following year. I don't remember how STR intégration of Honda went.
Last edited by diffuser on Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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_cerber1
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Team =D>

M840TR
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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diffuser wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 4:27 pm
Ground Effect wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:55 am
mwillems wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:55 am


This was originally a reply to a fanboy, but Ross Brawn made the same points this week, that RP underperformed this year and Mclaren overperformed, putting it down to them being a well oiled team. So I thought I'd post it since Darth Piekius didn't want to think we got third as much as because of others poor performance as our own decent ones.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/ross-braw ... performed/

If we are honest, we did well to keep hanging in and around third for the past few races so that when we had a lucky break we were well positioned to take it. The RP is up there with the Merc and Red Bull in terms of car quality, but you cannot say the same for us, unfortunately.
100% spot on! I dare say even Checo on his best day hasn’t gotten the best out of that car, as impressive as he’s been. It’s definitely worth a lot more than 2 podiums. There’s a reason why Seb is happy to go there, someone of his calibre and relatively young age should be thinking winning team or bust. So McLaren have done well to have kept in the fight, with all the complications of preparing for next season and testing future parts etc. But so far, RP have underachieved, no doubt about it.
I guess I'm just being the devil's advocate here but ...

Don't forget , if you give back the penality points to RP, they'd be 2 points behind. Add to that, both RP drivers have gotten covid, something that wouldn't happen in a normal year. I'd have to say they've been ATLEAST average.


It is a perception or Opinion that another driver can get more out of the car. if you beleive that RP is the 2019 Merc. Then if we look at how he compares against Hamilton 2019 Bahrain...
Sergio PEREZ   Bahrain 2020 1:28.322
Lewis Hamilton Bahrain 2019 1:28.190
Being a 10th off Hamilton when he was behind Ferrari in Q3, you know he's flat out, is pretty good.
A useful caveat in RP20 and W10 comparisons is that the former has a much faster engine, new suspension, new packaging, and half a year's worth of aero development.

Lucky
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Ground Effect
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Arrow Electronics extend deal with McLaren Racing.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

Ground Effect
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

Emag
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Kind of makes sense because they are still together at Indy right?

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Kind of Crazy how much fun the midfield will be next year. LeClerc, Sainz, Alonzo, Riccardo, Norris, Stroll and Vettel. Bloody Amazing racing. Now if only RBR can screw up a fall back a few 10ths....

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mclaren111
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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diffuser wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:49 pm
Kind of Crazy how much fun the midfield will be next year. LeClerc, Sainz, Alonzo, Riccardo, Norris, Stroll and Vettel. Bloody Amazing racing. Now if only RBR can screw up a fall back a few 10ths....

Agreed...

mwillems
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Can we not just get faster by a few tenths instead, and everyone else stay where they are! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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DiogoBrand
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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diffuser wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:49 pm
Kind of Crazy how much fun the midfield will be next year. LeClerc, Sainz, Alonzo, Riccardo, Norris, Stroll and Vettel. Bloody Amazing racing. Now if only RBR can screw up a fall back a few 10ths....
I wish Red Bull gets faster by a few tenths actually. I'd rather see Mercedes have a contender than another one for the midfield.
As a McLaren fan I'd love to see them have a chance to fight for 2nd, but it would make the fight at the front even more boring than it already is.

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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DiogoBrand wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:35 pm
diffuser wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:49 pm
Kind of Crazy how much fun the midfield will be next year. LeClerc, Sainz, Alonzo, Riccardo, Norris, Stroll and Vettel. Bloody Amazing racing. Now if only RBR can screw up a fall back a few 10ths....
I wish Red Bull gets faster by a few tenths actually. I'd rather see Mercedes have a contender than another one for the midfield.
As a McLaren fan I'd love to see them have a chance to fight for 2nd, but it would make the fight at the front even more boring than it already is.
I have no Clue but my guess is Merc has been working on next year's car almost the whole 2020 year. They will swith to 2022 full out on Jan 1st. Too much money and too many resources in this NON CAP year.