[ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Balalu
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Perez getting Covid is on himself and his team. Should have known better. Sorry. Covid was very much part of the championship last year.
Numbers in F1 often do not tell the whole story, but in the end, numbers are what count.

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Darth-Piekus
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:49 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:45 am
Darth-Piekus wrote:
Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:10 am
Maybe but still that car was so far ahead we can't compare and that doesn't change the fact that if RP was so much faster Mclaren would still not stand a chance if the car was nowhere near. But those are just If Scenarios. Statistics speak for themselves. We beat them fair and square in so many races. Not just one lap but a whole race.

The point is Mclaren was better overall as a car. If RP was 8/10, Mclaren was 7,5/10 but the difference here is that Mclaren was 7.0 to 7.5/10 in every single race. RP was 8/10 in one race and 5/10 in another, then 2/10 in another etc etc. I'm talking about car consistency. That is how a measurement of a fast car is shown. Across the whole year in every circuit in races where points count. Driver's alone aren't the deciding factor.
Look at it this way. RP had the faster car and we STILL beat them.

How great are we as a team!!

To take your opinion on their copy cat approach, RP cheated and we STILL beat them.
Stroll was taken out once by Leclerc, once by Kvyat, a blown tire at Mugello, while Perez had two DNFs due to Mercedes PU failures. RP was rather unlucky or screwed over and should probably have finished above Mclaren.
Just to clarify something regarding luck. Mclaren drivers were taken out also many times and they even had DNFs two times on the last lap losing a whole chunk of points as a 4th position was lost in one of them. Both teams had the same amount of luck but if we want to mention to who would have come out on top on normal conditions then it's fair to say that Racing Point would have been disqualified since the procedure would have turned differently.

At the end of the day Mclaren was the better package.

mwillems
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Darth-Piekus wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:01 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:49 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:45 am


Look at it this way. RP had the faster car and we STILL beat them.

How great are we as a team!!

To take your opinion on their copy cat approach, RP cheated and we STILL beat them.
Stroll was taken out once by Leclerc, once by Kvyat, a blown tire at Mugello, while Perez had two DNFs due to Mercedes PU failures. RP was rather unlucky or screwed over and should probably have finished above Mclaren.
Just to clarify something regarding luck. Mclaren drivers were taken out also many times and they even had DNFs two times on the last lap losing a whole chunk of points as a 4th position was lost in one of them. Both teams had the same amount of luck but if we want to mention to who would have come out on top on normal conditions then it's fair to say that Racing Point would have been disqualified since the procedure would have turned differently.

At the end of the day Mclaren was the better package.
Why is it fair to say they would be disqualified, what evidence is there that it would be an outcome?

None whatsoever.

It wasn't luck, it was largely driver lineup.
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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Balalu wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 9:04 pm
Perez getting Covid is on himself and his team. Should have known better. Sorry. Covid was very much part of the championship last year.
That's not what I said?

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ispano6
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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mwillems wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:34 pm
Darth-Piekus wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:01 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:49 pm


Stroll was taken out once by Leclerc, once by Kvyat, a blown tire at Mugello, while Perez had two DNFs due to Mercedes PU failures. RP was rather unlucky or screwed over and should probably have finished above Mclaren.
Just to clarify something regarding luck. Mclaren drivers were taken out also many times and they even had DNFs two times on the last lap losing a whole chunk of points as a 4th position was lost in one of them. Both teams had the same amount of luck but if we want to mention to who would have come out on top on normal conditions then it's fair to say that Racing Point would have been disqualified since the procedure would have turned differently.

At the end of the day Mclaren was the better package.
Why is it fair to say they would be disqualified, what evidence is there that it would be an outcome?

None whatsoever.

It wasn't luck, it was largely driver lineup.
RP had their early season points stripped thanks to Renault, likely had a better car regardless if they were tracing point etc. I don't buy the Mclaren had a better package or were the better team. Perez got a win and Stroll a pole, pretty impressive for a small budget team.

mwillems
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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ispano6 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:37 am
mwillems wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:34 pm
Darth-Piekus wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:01 pm


Just to clarify something regarding luck. Mclaren drivers were taken out also many times and they even had DNFs two times on the last lap losing a whole chunk of points as a 4th position was lost in one of them. Both teams had the same amount of luck but if we want to mention to who would have come out on top on normal conditions then it's fair to say that Racing Point would have been disqualified since the procedure would have turned differently.

At the end of the day Mclaren was the better package.
Why is it fair to say they would be disqualified, what evidence is there that it would be an outcome?

None whatsoever.

It wasn't luck, it was largely driver lineup.
RP had their early season points stripped thanks to Renault, likely had a better car regardless if they were tracing point etc. I don't buy the Mclaren had a better package or were the better team. Perez got a win and Stroll a pole, pretty impressive for a small budget team.
Thats fair enough. I do buy it, I think Stroll lost RP 3rd in the championship.

In fact I said it before the season started and all through the season, Stroll is their weak link and our opportunity to beat what was likely to be / turned out to be the faster car.
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Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

f1rules
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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brown on racefans about next year a bit about this year
https://www.racefans.net/2021/01/07/can ... 21-rivals/
“So therefore, I think we’ve got a shot. But we weren’t the third quickest car. We were the fourth quickest car.”

mwillems
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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f1rules wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:22 am
brown on racefans about next year a bit about this year
https://www.racefans.net/2021/01/07/can ... 21-rivals/
“So therefore, I think we’ve got a shot. But we weren’t the third quickest car. We were the fourth quickest car.”
Also from that article...

Brown said McLaren’s pairing of Carlos Sainz Jnr and Lando Norris exploited weaknesses in rivals’ driver line-up’s last year.
“I think with Ferrari’s resources and driver line-up, if you look at where [Charles] Leclerc finished in the championship, if they would have had more consistency out of their second driver and some more pace, I don’t think they would have finished sixth in the championship. So therefore, are they a threat for third with their resources? Absolutely.”

Brown saw the same weakness in Racing Point, who McLaren overtook for third place at the final round.

“I think Racing Point was the third-quickest car most of the year,” he said. “But again, you didn’t have two drivers driving at the same level all the time.”
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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mwillems wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:54 am
ispano6 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:37 am
mwillems wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:34 pm


Why is it fair to say they would be disqualified, what evidence is there that it would be an outcome?

None whatsoever.

It wasn't luck, it was largely driver lineup.
RP had their early season points stripped thanks to Renault, likely had a better car regardless if they were tracing point etc. I don't buy the Mclaren had a better package or were the better team. Perez got a win and Stroll a pole, pretty impressive for a small budget team.
Thats fair enough. I do buy it, I think Stroll lost RP 3rd in the championship.

In fact I said it before the season started and all through the season, Stroll is their weak link and our opportunity to beat what was likely to be / turned out to be the faster car.

Like I and a few others have said before. It isn't JUST Stroll's Fault. Does Stroll need to up his game? Yes. Maybe you dislike Stroll so that fits your agenda. Idk... If you're being honest. They lost by 7 points, Stroll is just 1 way they could have made up those 7 points. I think they had 4 Mechanical DNFs between the pair of drivers. Below are 9 races, red, of which one of the drivers didn't start or finish for various reasons. One race, yellow, both didn't finsh

Pos	Driver				AUT	STY	HUN	GBR	70A	ESP	BEL	ITA	TUS	RUS	EIF	PRT	EMI	TUR	BHR	SKR	ABU	Points
1	Lewis Hamilton			4	1	1	1	2	1	1	7	1	3	1	1	1	1	1	 	3	347
2	Valtteri Bottas			1	2	3	11	3	3	2	5	2	1	R	2	2	14	8	8	2	223
3	Max Verstappen			R	3	2	2	1	2	3	R	R	2	2	3	R	6	2	R	1	214
4	Sergio Perez			6	6	7	 	 	5	10	10	5	4	4	7	6	2	18R	1	R	125
5	Daniel Ricciardo		R	8	8	4	14	11	4	6	4	5	3	9	3	10	7	5	7	119
6	Carlos Sainz			5	9	9	13	13	6	DNS	2	R	R	5	6	7	5	5	4	6	105
7	Alexander Albon			13R	4	5	8	5	8	6	15	3	10	R	12	15	7	3	6	4	105
8	Monaco Charles Leclerc		2	R	11	3	4	R	14	R	8	6	7	4	5	4	10	R	13	98
9	Lando Norris			3	5	13	5	9	10	7	4	6	15	R	13	8	8	4	10	5	97
10	Pierre Gasly			7	15	R	7	11	9	8	1	R	9	6	5	R	13	6	11	8	75
11	Lance Stroll			R	7	4	9	6	4	9	3	R	R	 	R	13	9	R	3	10	75

mwillems
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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diffuser wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:52 pm
mwillems wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:54 am
ispano6 wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:37 am


RP had their early season points stripped thanks to Renault, likely had a better car regardless if they were tracing point etc. I don't buy the Mclaren had a better package or were the better team. Perez got a win and Stroll a pole, pretty impressive for a small budget team.
Thats fair enough. I do buy it, I think Stroll lost RP 3rd in the championship.

In fact I said it before the season started and all through the season, Stroll is their weak link and our opportunity to beat what was likely to be / turned out to be the faster car.

Like I and a few others have said before. It isn't JUST Stroll's Fault. Does Stroll need to up his game? Yes. Maybe you dislike Stroll so that fits your agenda. Idk... If you're being honest. They lost by 7 points, Stroll is just 1 way they could have made up those 7 points. I think they had 4 Mechanical DNFs between the pair of drivers. Below are 9 races, red, of which one of the drivers didn't start or finish for various reasons. One race, yellow, both didn't finsh

Pos	Driver				AUT	STY	HUN	GBR	70A	ESP	BEL	ITA	TUS	RUS	EIF	PRT	EMI	TUR	BHR	SKR	ABU	Points
1	Lewis Hamilton			4	1	1	1	2	1	1	7	1	3	1	1	1	1	1	 	3	347
2	Valtteri Bottas			1	2	3	11	3	3	2	5	2	1	R	2	2	14	8	8	2	223
3	Max Verstappen			R	3	2	2	1	2	3	R	R	2	2	3	R	6	2	R	1	214
4	Sergio Perez			6	6	7	 	 	5	10	10	5	4	4	7	6	2	18R	1	R	125
5	Daniel Ricciardo		R	8	8	4	14	11	4	6	4	5	3	9	3	10	7	5	7	119
6	Carlos Sainz			5	9	9	13	13	6	DNS	2	R	R	5	6	7	5	5	4	6	105
7	Alexander Albon			13R	4	5	8	5	8	6	15	3	10	R	12	15	7	3	6	4	105
8	Monaco Charles Leclerc		2	R	11	3	4	R	14	R	8	6	7	4	5	4	10	R	13	98
9	Lando Norris			3	5	13	5	9	10	7	4	6	15	R	13	8	8	4	10	5	97
10	Pierre Gasly			7	15	R	7	11	9	8	1	R	9	6	5	R	13	6	11	8	75
11	Lance Stroll			R	7	4	9	6	4	9	3	R	R	 	R	13	9	R	3	10	75
I don't dislike him at all, I actually do like him, and I think he merits a place in a lower level team, but he isn't up to the standard that RP require in my opinion and also managed to lose positions and points in ways that Sergio Perez didn't, and he struggled to overtake markedly slower cars in a way that Perez didn't. One of the races in Austria, Ricciardo made a mockery of him. Perez zipped by and later Stroll flew up behind him and then was just smashed by Ricciardos racecraft in what was a much slower Renault at that point, who easily held Stroll behind.

At times, he did do some great driving, with some hard and tight overtaking, but then on other days, he was just poor, he seemed completely inconsistent this season and at times just lacked concentration, or didn't look around himself and focussed only in front. Those stats don't paint the full picture for me. They don't mention Hulkenbergs points or the context around incidents. Hulkenberg will turn both the Eifel grand prix and the 70Ann GP back to black, for instance as he finished both along with Perez.

My impression of his driving this year is not up to standard. And whilst you may think I'm being biased, the head of our favourite Formula 1 team agrees and shares that opinion, so I don't think it is entirely baseless.
Last edited by mwillems on Thu Jan 07, 2021 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ground Effect
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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I’m not into bashing drivers, but Lance definitely weakens his team. He’s not a hopeless driver, but no sane, or at least, reasonable person would drop Checo and leave Stroll in the team if given an unbiased choice. He does have his strengths. He’s, for some weird reason, pretty excellent in the wet, better than Checo. But it doesn’t rain every other Sunday in F1. The good news is that he’s 22 years old, he can improve, and probably will, not sure how much as long as he has a guaranteed seat in F1, that’s up to him and his circle to sort out. But without a doubt having Stroll in the 2nd seat in the 3rd fastest car definitely helped McLaren.
Q: (Stefano Mancini – La Stampa) Kimi, will you help Vettel to win his championship this year?
Kimi Raikkonen: I can only drive one car, obviously. 
@2018 Singapore Grand Prix drivers press conference.

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Zynerji
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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I like Lance as a driver. He isn't loud or attention seeking, so that's good as well.
I think his car control is really good, as well as his tyre management. He can use a bit of ruthlessness in his racecraft however, and that's how Checo beat him, and Vettel is going to dominate him.

If anything, Lance is too nice for F1.

mwillems
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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I was actually impressed with some of Lances overtaking at times, he really did push it to the wire on a number of occasions and manage to pull it off. It's just that you need to do it at least almost every weekend, not every other weekend. Sometimes he actually looks a bit lost in an F1 car to me, like he has no answers for what is happening on the track, in front or behind.

On another plus for Lance, he's pretty decent at the start too. But he's just not got the all round and consistent game that puts him up with other top midfield drivers.

I would personally rate Gasly, Checo, Norris, Ricciardo, Sainz, Leclerc, Vettel, Bottas, Hamilton, Raikonnen, Russell and Verstappen as all better than him.

I also think it would be hard to argue with that assessment too. That's nearly two thirds of the field, so for me he is a lower midfield driver.

Then you think about drivers like Hulkenberg and Alonso and Lance is rapidly moving back on Merit, and on Merit he isn't the right driver for a team with top 3 aspirations, especially if the other teams have 2 strong drivers, like Mclaren last year and Mclaren/Ferrari this year.
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adrianjordan
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Darth-Piekus wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:01 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:49 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:45 am


Look at it this way. RP had the faster car and we STILL beat them.

How great are we as a team!!

To take your opinion on their copy cat approach, RP cheated and we STILL beat them.
Stroll was taken out once by Leclerc, once by Kvyat, a blown tire at Mugello, while Perez had two DNFs due to Mercedes PU failures. RP was rather unlucky or screwed over and should probably have finished above Mclaren.
Just to clarify something regarding luck. Mclaren drivers were taken out also many times and they even had DNFs two times on the last lap losing a whole chunk of points as a 4th position was lost in one of them. Both teams had the same amount of luck but if we want to mention to who would have come out on top on normal conditions then it's fair to say that Racing Point would have been disqualified since the procedure would have turned differently.

At the end of the day Mclaren was the better package.
So we only secured 3rd in the last race DESPITE having a faster car? That's a depressing view you have on things.

Fortunately I trust the opinions of pretty much everyone who has any insight into these things who says RP had the faster car (I mean if they didn't, why would you care that they cheated?) and yet we STILL managed to beat the.
Bring on the EV revolution!!

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Darth-Piekus
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Let me clarify some things again. You can't expect to hear anyone from the Mclaren Team say to the cameras that we were unbeatable and faster. Nobody in F1 does that not even Mercedes. RP had the faster car in terms of ultimate pace. That is undeniable. However they were not able to show that faster ultimate pace in a whole race or in every grand prix. While RP was 8 they were many races where they raced for 4. Mclaren was constantly on 7.5. That is why Mclaren was the better car. They showed that speed in every single qualifying and race.

As to the fact that I care if they cheated I am just replying to a former post saying that RP could have finished 3rd if they did this or that. I am just saying a possibility of them getting diqualified by the FIA had the accusing teams not taken back their accuses and kept going as the brakes were just the tip of the iceberg.