[ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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emp
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Darth-Piekus wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:59 pm
Let me clarify some things again. You can't expect to hear anyone from the Mclaren Team say to the cameras that we were unbeatable and faster. Nobody in F1 does that not even Mercedes. RP had the faster car in terms of ultimate pace. That is undeniable. However they were not able to show that faster ultimate pace in a whole race or in every grand prix. While RP was 8 they were many races where they raced for 4. Mclaren was constantly on 7.5. That is why Mclaren was the better car. They showed that speed in every single qualifying and race.

As to the fact that I care if they cheated I am just replying to a former post saying that RP could have finished 3rd if they did this or that. I am just saying a possibility of them getting diqualified by the FIA had the accusing teams not taken back their accuses and kept going as the brakes were just the tip of the iceberg.
Mclaren was the better team, meaning car+drivers+strategy+etc. This is a team sport and that is what we saw in the championship, Mclaren was the 3rd best team.

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Darth-Piekus
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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I don't see the difference to what you said.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Darth-Piekus wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:04 pm
I don't see the difference to what you said.
I can not explain it very good because I am no expert at this, but the car won't design itself and won't drive itself. Therefore, the performance can not be explained just by the car, but by the team that also designed the car and the drivers who also drove it, the strategists and management who made the right calls by hiring people or pitting in the right window in a race. It all comes down to the team, not the car.

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Darth-Piekus
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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I am also no expert in this but consider yourself this. So far our package(team,car,drivers,strategy) was the best. However notice that I mention the car also. The team or the drivers would not be able to do much if the car wasn't fast. If for example we had a car like Ferrari no amount of good teamwork or drivers or strategy would be able to give us 3rd place. While RP was better in ultimate pace, their car wasn't good in the whole duration of the race or every single race.

Personally I don't see why on a Mclaren forum instead of celebrating this good achievement have to find ways to undermine that.

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Darth-Piekus wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:04 pm
I don't see the difference to what you said.
To me when someone refers to the car bring better, I think about the capability of the car. What's the max this car can achieve?

Finishing 3ird in the constructor is all those things emp said. In 2020, keeping your drivers health played a big part. The team need to be able to give their car the best chance to score points in every race. They just didn't do that in 5 races. They probably left 40 points on the table in those 5 races.

emp
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Darth-Piekus wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:56 am
I am also no expert in this but consider yourself this. So far our package(team,car,drivers,strategy) was the best. However notice that I mention the car also. The team or the drivers would not be able to do much if the car wasn't fast. If for example we had a car like Ferrari no amount of good teamwork or drivers or strategy would be able to give us 3rd place. While RP was better in ultimate pace, their car wasn't good in the whole duration of the race or every single race.

Personally I don't see why on a Mclaren forum instead of celebrating this good achievement have to find ways to undermine that.
I am very happy for McLaren and what they achieved and I'm not trying to undermine their capabilities. We just have a different opinion on the matter, and I think that is a good thing.
The car was fast and they designed it, not like some of their competitors. That is the team accomplishment. Even Ferrari with their car managed podiums this season, so if we talk exceptions we should also take their good results, not just the bad ones. Also, I think in a bad car you can always see another part of the team -the drivers- and that is why we remember some races from Alonso in 2012, from Hamilton in 2009 and many many others from exceptional drivers that didn't had the best car. And I think McLaren had the better drivers in 2020.
I agree with you that RP was a better car, how did they achieved that is another story and because of how they achieved it they couldn't understand it and develop it proper, costing them points in the championship. And that is why we should celebrate McLaren's success even more, it was hard work from the whole team.

mwillems
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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diffuser wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:36 am
Darth-Piekus wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:04 pm
I don't see the difference to what you said.
To me when someone refers to the car bring better, I think about the capability of the car. What's the max this car can achieve?

Finishing 3ird in the constructor is all those things emp said. In 2020, keeping your drivers health played a big part. The team need to be able to give their car the best chance to score points in every race. They just didn't do that in 5 races. They probably left 40 points on the table in those 5 races.
Lance Strolls average finishing position, for those races he finished in, was 7.7 and Hulkenberg finished 8th in that Race that he replaced stroll, after starting 20th. As Perez' replacement he finished 7th and had a DNS. Perez average finish position was 6 on the button. Hulkenberg started 3rd in the 70A race and only dropped back due to strange vibrations forcing a 3 stop strategy, so his pace wasn't really that off at all, he was closer to Perez than Stroll. Definitely rusty for sure, but I don't think he lost a hatful of points.
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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mwillems wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:51 pm
diffuser wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:36 am
Darth-Piekus wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:04 pm
I don't see the difference to what you said.
To me when someone refers to the car bring better, I think about the capability of the car. What's the max this car can achieve?

Finishing 3ird in the constructor is all those things emp said. In 2020, keeping your drivers health played a big part. The team need to be able to give their car the best chance to score points in every race. They just didn't do that in 5 races. They probably left 40 points on the table in those 5 races.
Lance Strolls average finishing position, for those races he finished in, was 7.7 and Hulkenberg finished 8th in that Race that he replaced stroll, after starting 20th. As Perez' replacement he finished 7th and had a DNS. Perez average finish position was 6 on the button. Hulkenberg started 3rd in the 70A race and only dropped back due to strange vibrations forcing a 3 stop strategy, so his pace wasn't really that off at all, he was closer to Perez than Stroll. Definitely rusty for sure, but I don't think he lost a hatful of points.
Yeah, I think first race he couldn't even start. PU problems or something. Don't remember the exact details.

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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mwillems wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:51 pm
diffuser wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:36 am
Darth-Piekus wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:04 pm
I don't see the difference to what you said.
To me when someone refers to the car bring better, I think about the capability of the car. What's the max this car can achieve?

Finishing 3ird in the constructor is all those things emp said. In 2020, keeping your drivers health played a big part. The team need to be able to give their car the best chance to score points in every race. They just didn't do that in 5 races. They probably left 40 points on the table in those 5 races.
Lance Strolls average finishing position, for those races he finished in, was 7.7 and Hulkenberg finished 8th in that Race that he replaced stroll, after starting 20th. As Perez' replacement he finished 7th and had a DNS. Perez average finish position was 6 on the button. Hulkenberg started 3rd in the 70A race and only dropped back due to strange vibrations forcing a 3 stop strategy, so his pace wasn't really that off at all, he was closer to Perez than Stroll. Definitely rusty for sure, but I don't think he lost a hatful of points.
Yeah, I think first race Hulk replaced Perez, he couldn't even start the race. PU problems or something. Don't remember the exact details.

We aren't exactly McLaren here. I'm sure they're aware of what they did better than RP. They also know where they need to improve.

@Darth-Piekus
I'm not just a fan boy. I don't want to live in a dream world. I try to be honest, respectful and truthful in my comments. I expect people here to put me straight when I'm wrong. If you come here to get lied to about McLaren, you certainly will not get it from me.

mwillems
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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diffuser wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 1:42 pm
mwillems wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 12:51 pm
diffuser wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 7:36 am


To me when someone refers to the car bring better, I think about the capability of the car. What's the max this car can achieve?

Finishing 3ird in the constructor is all those things emp said. In 2020, keeping your drivers health played a big part. The team need to be able to give their car the best chance to score points in every race. They just didn't do that in 5 races. They probably left 40 points on the table in those 5 races.
Lance Strolls average finishing position, for those races he finished in, was 7.7 and Hulkenberg finished 8th in that Race that he replaced stroll, after starting 20th. As Perez' replacement he finished 7th and had a DNS. Perez average finish position was 6 on the button. Hulkenberg started 3rd in the 70A race and only dropped back due to strange vibrations forcing a 3 stop strategy, so his pace wasn't really that off at all, he was closer to Perez than Stroll. Definitely rusty for sure, but I don't think he lost a hatful of points.
Yeah, I think first race Hulk replaced Perez, he couldn't even start the race. PU problems or something. Don't remember the exact details.

We aren't exactly McLaren here. I'm sure they're aware of what they did better than RP. They also know where they need to improve.

@Darth-Piekus
I'm not just a fan boy. I don't want to live in a dream world. I try to be honest, respectful and truthful in my comments. I expect people here to put me straight when I'm wrong. If you come here to get lied to about McLaren, you certainly will not get it from me.
Yeah I know, and I know I can have a reasonable conversation with you too, unlike a few others, I always enjoy you tolerating my opinionated nature :mrgreen:
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

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Darth-Piekus
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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I never said that anyone was a fanboy in the negative term we all know. There's a difference between a fan and a fanboy. All I am saying is that people have different opinions about the better car. Some people have the opinion that the better car was the one that could achieve the better time. Some others have a different opinion. Personally I think that Mclaren was the faster car not because of ultimate pace (RP was slightly faster in ultimate pace that is undeniable) but because it was good in every single lap of every single race and had fewer weaknesses than RP. Consistency for me makes the better car and not ultimate speed.

Emag
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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You are confusing facts for opinions my man. Liking or disliking a car's color or design is an opinion, because it depends on the person. You can have an opinion about that.
However, you can't have an opinion about how much faster or slower a car is compared to another. It's like saying "in my opinion 2+2=5". It's nonsense. McLaren can be either faster or slower compared to RacingPoint. It is going to be one or the other. There is no opinion on this matter.

The fact is, McLaren was the slower car compared to RacingPoint. You can say that the team performed at a higher level, they maximized their results, and made fewer mistakes throughout the course of the year. Nobody is discrediting any of that from McLaren. But the car itself was on average slower than the RacingPoint car. And that is a fact. Again, there is no opinion on this matter.

And to be absolutely precise, McLaren was on average about 0.1% slower than RacingPoint last year. If you need convincing, just look at this chart: https://i.redd.it/qbiw9i1nvr461.png

And an extra note: That 0.1% deficit is the average value. If you take the standard deviation into consideration, then the gap from the race to race turns out to be worse most of the time for McLaren.

mwillems
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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Darth-Piekus wrote:
Sun Jan 10, 2021 4:01 pm
I never said that anyone was a fanboy in the negative term we all know. There's a difference between a fan and a fanboy. All I am saying is that people have different opinions about the better car. Some people have the opinion that the better car was the one that could achieve the better time. Some others have a different opinion. Personally I think that Mclaren was the faster car not because of ultimate pace (RP was slightly faster in ultimate pace that is undeniable) but because it was good in every single lap of every single race and had fewer weaknesses than RP. Consistency for me makes the better car and not ultimate speed.
Would you be able to list the strengths and weaknesses of each car?

And if possible, see if you can recall a poor lap from the Mclaren, I'm sure there must be at least one. For instance, Norris didn't make it into Q3 at Mugello, was that qualifying a good lap? And the second half of the race, were they good laps? Lot's of folks who might finish ahead of Norris had crashed out of for Instance Verstappen, Sainz, Gasly, Stroll and Ocon. Because to me it feels like we were lucky to get many or even any points at that race.
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

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Darth-Piekus
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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I am sorry but I disagree. You consider it a fact. I consider it an opinion. Numbers, charts and diagrams are only on paper. We all saw a different picture in more than half of the grand prix. While it is undeniable that RP was the faster car in ultimate pace they weren't able to show it in consistency and had many more weaknesses than Mclaren in the whole year. That can translate either as the RP team had no idea how to show that speed or the car chose when to show that speed and when not to show that.

In any case I am stopping here as I am not interested in that topic anymore. We beat them fair and square even with illegal parts and that should say everything.

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Shader
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Re: [ 2020 ] Mclaren F1 Team - Renault

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You guys need to stop arguing, because you are destroying the thread. It's been a week now I think and what can be found here is still that same argument was McLaren 3rd car or a team.... and Racing Point BS It's becoming boring and mind numbing. Please take it to DM where you can argue indefinitly, because it is evident you will not find common ground on the issue.