[ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Oh Crofty :lol:
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Sorry for the double post, I also posted in the Mercedes PU thread but it doesn't look like much activity in there.

When did Mercedes first start work on their V6 Hybrid? I read Andy Cowell say the first design was 2012, but then read di Montezemolo saying Lauda told him 2007 !? Surely that was the KERS hybrid V8?
Last edited by NathanOlder on Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:25 am
Sorry for the double post, I also posted in the Mercedes PU thread but it doesn't look like much activity in there.

When did Mercedes first start work on their V6 Hybrid? I read Andy Cowell say the first design was 2012, but then read di Montezemolo saying Lauda told him 2007 !? Surely that was the KERS hybrid V8?
Yeah I call BS on that quote from Luca. Smells more like an attempt to cover up why Ferrari were crap inspite of all their money.
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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tangodjango wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:32 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:25 am
Sorry for the double post, I also posted in the Mercedes PU thread but it doesn't look like much activity in there.

When did Mercedes first start work on their V6 Hybrid? I read Andy Cowell say the first design was 2012, but then read di Montezemolo saying Lauda told him 2007 !? Surely that was the KERS hybrid V8?
Yeah I call BS on that quote from Luca. Smells more like an attempt to cover up why Ferrari were crap inspite of all their money.
First design of the V6 probably was in 2012, but work started much earlier. I think the rules were published around 2010? Before that when working on the rules with the teams Mercedes probably already had several studies (simulations and one cilinder setups) for the then inline-4 1.6 that the FIA was pushing for.
2007 might be a tad early, but on the other hand, there were a lot of thumb twisting engineers during the last V8 years due to the freeze.

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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Jolle wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:40 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:32 am
NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 2:25 am
Sorry for the double post, I also posted in the Mercedes PU thread but it doesn't look like much activity in there.

When did Mercedes first start work on their V6 Hybrid? I read Andy Cowell say the first design was 2012, but then read di Montezemolo saying Lauda told him 2007 !? Surely that was the KERS hybrid V8?
Yeah I call BS on that quote from Luca. Smells more like an attempt to cover up why Ferrari were crap inspite of all their money.
First design of the V6 probably was in 2012, but work started much earlier. I think the rules were published around 2010? Before that when working on the rules with the teams Mercedes probably already had several studies (simulations and one cilinder setups) for the then inline-4 1.6 that the FIA was pushing for.
2007 might be a tad early, but on the other hand, there were a lot of thumb twisting engineers during the last V8 years due to the freeze.
So saying work started much earlier, would you say that applies to Renault and Ferrari too ?
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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NathanOlder wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:37 pm
Jolle wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:40 pm
tangodjango wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:32 am

Yeah I call BS on that quote from Luca. Smells more like an attempt to cover up why Ferrari were crap inspite of all their money.
First design of the V6 probably was in 2012, but work started much earlier. I think the rules were published around 2010? Before that when working on the rules with the teams Mercedes probably already had several studies (simulations and one cilinder setups) for the then inline-4 1.6 that the FIA was pushing for.
2007 might be a tad early, but on the other hand, there were a lot of thumb twisting engineers during the last V8 years due to the freeze.
So saying work started much earlier, would you say that applies to Renault and Ferrari too ?
They were in the loop from the beginning. So... good chance they were (if not, well, their fault)

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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Yeah agreed.
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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I think Mercedes really put all their eggs in the basket for the V6T.
There's no way you can convince me any manufacturer started as late as 2012 with their engines for 2014 to begin with.
At what exact time they did start is not in my area of knowledge, but definately far earlier than 2012, so actually, 2007 or 2008 sounds pretty plausible. It could be 2012 when their 'final designs' arrived at the dynos and they worked from there to the 2014 launch specs. I believe Mercedes however 'simply' decided to throw everything at it. It fits with the profile that they wanted their own team and got their hands on BrawnGP and Michael Schumacher, and all involved. We're talking big names, big investment, from A to Z. Mercedes did not 'just' make a decent engine for 2014, for Mclaren for example, and have success, no, they early on -surely after the spygate scandal, perhaps to bury that incident in the past and clear any smear on their name- focused on going all out. Looking at the success with BrawnGP in 2009 made them realize they didnt need Mclaren to achieve success. They probably also were already working on that V6T, and decided to invest more than the competition and do a Schumi-Ferrari. They had the right people there, including the legend himself. I also believe it was in their plan to sooner or later get Hamilton - A Mercedes protegé - aboard anyway. Whether that would be a Hamilton-Schumacher combo (which would be amazeballs), or planning to replace Der Schumi with Lewis anyway i dunno.
Either way, everything indicates that Mercedes really went in prepared to the teeth with a certain overkill if you may, and they're using every single bit of it while they still can.

The simple truth is, the other teams did not 'underestimate' the V6T engines, they did not 'lack', the simple truth is, Mercedes really went in much more than anybody probably ever did or expected to, including themselves. This left the competition on the back foot.

An example on this is really simple, it's not just the engine, it's the car, package and driver. RacingPoint copied the Mercs and that brought them sudden 'success', despite having the same engine the year before and being nowhere near.

In the end, Mercedes really pulled something extraordinary out of the hat. Applaud to them.

Also, let's not forget that Mercedes does not have a culture of blame, attack, bite and crush like it atleast seems is right back again at Ferrari. Arrivabene just had settled things and then Binotto stirred the pot and turned it into a complete storm frenzy. I believe Renault could have had much improvement too if Abiteboul didn't do that 'cocky' and 'attack' character too.
Their 'beef' with RedBull imo is an example of character, and this immediately influences the entire team.
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Manoah2u wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:52 pm
I think Mercedes really put all their eggs in the basket for the V6T.
There's no way you can convince me any manufacturer started as late as 2012 with their engines for 2014 to begin with.
At what exact time they did start is not in my area of knowledge, but definately far earlier than 2012, so actually, 2007 or 2008 sounds pretty plausible. It could be 2012 when their 'final designs' arrived at the dynos and they worked from there to the 2014 launch specs. I believe Mercedes however 'simply' decided to throw everything at it. It fits with the profile that they wanted their own team and got their hands on BrawnGP and Michael Schumacher, and all involved. We're talking big names, big investment, from A to Z. Mercedes did not 'just' make a decent engine for 2014, for Mclaren for example, and have success, no, they early on -surely after the spygate scandal, perhaps to bury that incident in the past and clear any smear on their name- focused on going all out. Looking at the success with BrawnGP in 2009 made them realize they didnt need Mclaren to achieve success. They probably also were already working on that V6T, and decided to invest more than the competition and do a Schumi-Ferrari. They had the right people there, including the legend himself. I also believe it was in their plan to sooner or later get Hamilton - A Mercedes protegé - aboard anyway. Whether that would be a Hamilton-Schumacher combo (which would be amazeballs), or planning to replace Der Schumi with Lewis anyway i dunno.
Either way, everything indicates that Mercedes really went in prepared to the teeth with a certain overkill if you may, and they're using every single bit of it while they still can.

The simple truth is, the other teams did not 'underestimate' the V6T engines, they did not 'lack', the simple truth is, Mercedes really went in much more than anybody probably ever did or expected to, including themselves. This left the competition on the back foot.

An example on this is really simple, it's not just the engine, it's the car, package and driver. RacingPoint copied the Mercs and that brought them sudden 'success', despite having the same engine the year before and being nowhere near.

In the end, Mercedes really pulled something extraordinary out of the hat. Applaud to them.

Also, let's not forget that Mercedes does not have a culture of blame, attack, bite and crush like it atleast seems is right back again at Ferrari. Arrivabene just had settled things and then Binotto stirred the pot and turned it into a complete storm frenzy. I believe Renault could have had much improvement too if Abiteboul didn't do that 'cocky' and 'attack' character too.
Their 'beef' with RedBull imo is an example of character, and this immediately influences the entire team.
Bit of a timeline.
V8’s were frozen in 2007, so R&D needed new projects. With the official new formula (4 cylinder hybrid turbo 1.6) for 2013, published in 2010, its safe to assume that the teams were all busy with the strategy group from 2007 with this new formula.
After Ferrari’s intervention during the 2011 season, it was changed into a V6TH and moved to 2014.

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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Manoah2u wrote:
Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:52 pm
I think Mercedes really put all their eggs in the basket for the V6T.
There's no way you can convince me any manufacturer started as late as 2012 with their engines for 2014 to begin with.
At what exact time they did start is not in my area of knowledge, but definately far earlier than 2012, so actually, 2007 or 2008 sounds pretty plausible. It could be 2012 when their 'final designs' arrived at the dynos and they worked from there to the 2014 launch specs. I believe Mercedes however 'simply' decided to throw everything at it. It fits with the profile that they wanted their own team and got their hands on BrawnGP and Michael Schumacher, and all involved. We're talking big names, big investment, from A to Z. Mercedes did not 'just' make a decent engine for 2014, for Mclaren for example, and have success, no, they early on -surely after the spygate scandal, perhaps to bury that incident in the past and clear any smear on their name- focused on going all out. Looking at the success with BrawnGP in 2009 made them realize they didnt need Mclaren to achieve success. They probably also were already working on that V6T, and decided to invest more than the competition and do a Schumi-Ferrari. They had the right people there, including the legend himself. I also believe it was in their plan to sooner or later get Hamilton - A Mercedes protegé - aboard anyway. Whether that would be a Hamilton-Schumacher combo (which would be amazeballs), or planning to replace Der Schumi with Lewis anyway i dunno.
Either way, everything indicates that Mercedes really went in prepared to the teeth with a certain overkill if you may, and they're using every single bit of it while they still can.

The simple truth is, the other teams did not 'underestimate' the V6T engines, they did not 'lack', the simple truth is, Mercedes really went in much more than anybody probably ever did or expected to, including themselves. This left the competition on the back foot.

An example on this is really simple, it's not just the engine, it's the car, package and driver. RacingPoint copied the Mercs and that brought them sudden 'success', despite having the same engine the year before and being nowhere near.

In the end, Mercedes really pulled something extraordinary out of the hat. Applaud to them.

Also, let's not forget that Mercedes does not have a culture of blame, attack, bite and crush like it atleast seems is right back again at Ferrari. Arrivabene just had settled things and then Binotto stirred the pot and turned it into a complete storm frenzy. I believe Renault could have had much improvement too if Abiteboul didn't do that 'cocky' and 'attack' character too.
Their 'beef' with RedBull imo is an example of character, and this immediately influences the entire team.
It's easier to be harmonious when your only challenger is the other car in your team. The team is composed of people, very good people to be sure, but all humans make mistakes, all humans feel pressure, and Mercedes has never been pushed to the brink. They've never had to battle their way to a title, it kind of falls in their lap with 3 or 4 races to go. Ferrari was a strong challenger in 2018 and 2017 but they imploded, and Red Bull proved to be too great a distraction.

I will be very surprised if Mercedes keeps the same advantage they had this year going on to next. Mercedes has to take a bigger step than they did from 2019 to 2020 on the engine side to not lose ground to Honda. If Mercedes only makes a similar step to 2020, 2021 Honda will close the gap. Which means the main difference will be down to chassis, Mercedes is bluffing, I'm sure they already recovered their downforce to early 2020 levels.

Red Bull ended 2020 with a car that was .6 seconds faster per lap by the end of the season, than when it started, and did so with only chassis developments. They also had the benefit of validating all their aerodynamic tweaks on track, so while they may not have been able to start work on 2021 early, RB is committed to it's aero concept and will simply further tweak the aero package, along with the packaging improvements the new Honda engine will bring.

While Mercedes had more time to design, their work was more virtual, and whereas RB has less time to design, their understanding of the current aero package has more track validation.

So let's say Mercedes loses .5 because of the aero changes, gains .3 from the engine, and recoups .3 for a net gain of .1

Red Bull loses .5 maybe .6 because everyone seems to think high rake will be a disaster. Then gains .4 from the engine, and gains .4 from the chassis and packaging improvements, for a net gain of .2

So the .3-.5 gap would become .2-.4, with one engine upgrade allowed and aero tweaks that gap can disappear by 1/4 season, and swing one way or the other by mid season. If RB doesn't lose more than Mercedes from the chassis, then the gap will essentially be non-existent.
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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Many modern companies have a non blame culture. Merc F1 is one of those. It’s nothing to do with winning or losing, it’s about simply ensuring everyone is confident to try their best without fear of failing. That is why when Merc do have a catastrophe, or like in 2018 when they were down on pace to Ferrari, they always came back stronger. No-ones head was on the block etc.

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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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I remember Mercedes was also for the inline 4 like Renault. But very late (2012?) to support Ferrari with the V6. Probably because they knew the split turbo was their best solution. Could be possible they started research on a leanburn/exhaust heat recovery type engine in 2007.

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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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NL_Fer wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:27 pm
I remember Mercedes was also for the inline 4 like Renault. But very late (2012?) to support Ferrari with the V6. Probably because they knew the split turbo was their best solution. Could be possible they started research on a leanburn/exhaust heat recovery type engine in 2007.
As soon as the v8 was frozen

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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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aral wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:05 pm
Just a reminder.....Jackie Stewart has nothing to do with the Mercedes team ! What taxes he pays is totally irrelevant and is his own business
Can the one of the six moderators un-stick the 2020 team, race, and car threads?
It's a bit tedious to navigate.

Thanks.
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Re: [ 2020 ] AMG Mercedes F1 Team - Mercedes

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:07 am

Can the one of the six moderators un-stick the 2020 team, race, and car threads?
It's a bit tedious to navigate.

Thanks.
Sorry,

wasn't really online for way too long. But all should be sorted now.

Please proceed the discussion in the 2021 Thread: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=29590
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