[ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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bill shoe
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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This RP situation raises lots of issues that are becoming more important over time as F1 moves toward more of a spec (or at least an increasingly restricted) formula in 2021. If everyone is limited to having similar bodywork within a variability spectrum from A to Z, and everyone eventually optimizes on J, then what does it mean to "design" the aero of next year's car to the same set of rules?

FOM and Ross Brawn are trying to reduce the performance returns from $pending, especially aero spending. This will necessarily lead to less and less visual variation among cars.

2020 may be the last year we even get this much visual variation. If the 2024 RP is a copy of the 2023 Mercedes, would there be any way to tell?

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JRindt
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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izzy wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:07 am
i can't immediately find the piece i read but those aren't identical are they? Given that they're all pretty similar with the combs banned. The side fins are much steeper on the RP and they look different lower down too, as far as we can see, and the proportions of the sawteeth are different. I think they can claim they designed it, even if it was obviously 'inspired by' the W10

They might need some other new parts before Oz tho... but they might be in the plan anyway
I don’t think the fins are much steeper at all. The pics are not for scale and the width of the rear wing end plates as a whole is different. So, the steeper fins on RP is just an illusion.

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izzy
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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LM10 wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:24 am
The Haas has never been as much of a copy as the Racing Point is. This year's Haas has a different front wing, a different rear wing, different bargeboards, a different floor, a different engine cover, a different airbox. To name the obvious ones.
The steeper fins on the rear wing of the RP20 could not be of more irrelevance. Probably they've made it like this to argue that it's not an exact copy. :lol:
No true, the Haas isn't a copy, Ferrari generously gave them their own unique design :D

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izzy
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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JRindt wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:33 am
I don’t think the fins are much steeper at all. The pics are not for scale and the width of the rear wing end plates as a whole is different. So, the steeper fins on RP is just an illusion.
Mmmm you might be right, now i look more closely. Anyway they have an upgrade coming for Oz and now they have to prove they 'designed' it.

There's quite a good article on https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/28 ... k-mercedes. Their argument is that once you're in the Mercedes tunnel with a Mercedes powertrain it makes sense to go low rake and the rest follows from there.

But i understand why Cyril is fed up. FIA should never have reduced the listed parts really, but that was part of Bernie's warped distribution

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izzy
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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bill shoe wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:35 am
This RP situation raises lots of issues that are becoming more important over time as F1 moves toward more of a spec (or at least an increasingly restricted) formula in 2021. If everyone is limited to having similar bodywork within a variability spectrum from A to Z, and everyone eventually optimizes on J, then what does it mean to "design" the aero of next year's car to the same set of rules?

FOM and Ross Brawn are trying to reduce the performance returns from $pending, especially aero spending. This will necessarily lead to less and less visual variation among cars.

2020 may be the last year we even get this much visual variation. If the 2024 RP is a copy of the 2023 Mercedes, would there be any way to tell?
Yes good points, it's a slippery slope in a bad direction! It sounds like F1 have more or less designed everybody's car for next year, almost

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yinlad
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:14 pm
Comments elsewhere on this forum report people seeing 4 W10 chassis going into RP factory.
Lmao where are those comments I need a good laugh... Maybe the most ridiculous theory yet

PowerandtheGlory
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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yinlad wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:18 am
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:14 pm
Comments elsewhere on this forum report people seeing 4 W10 chassis going into RP factory.
Lmao where are those comments I need a good laugh... Maybe the most ridiculous theory yet
Racing point- aka- 'off the back of a lorry...' :lol:

The full quote is
"I know for a fact that Racing point received 4 Chassis from Mercedes last November. Wheeled them in to the back door. Let’s bear in mind, that they test in the same wind tunnel on the weekends. Who knows what information is shared..."
The bargeboard area is 'Exactly' the same... so how can the TP quote ' Our design from scratch'... i can smell the BS from here... The only good thing is Merc technically cant 'give them' a 2021 car- they will need to actual design that themselves - unless of course they are getting knock-off from that design too.

The only good that can come of this is when RP beat a Redbull in a race and then Marko and Horner get all moany and silly.. then i will take my hat off to the Copy cats at RP =D>
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

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JRindt
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:34 am
yinlad wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:18 am
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:14 pm
Comments elsewhere on this forum report people seeing 4 W10 chassis going into RP factory.
Lmao where are those comments I need a good laugh... Maybe the most ridiculous theory yet
Racing point- aka- 'off the back of a lorry...' :lol:

The full quote is
"I know for a fact that Racing point received 4 Chassis from Mercedes last November. Wheeled them in to the back door. Let’s bear in mind, that they test in the same wind tunnel on the weekends. Who knows what information is shared..."
The bargeboard area is 'Exactly' the same... so how can the TP quote ' Our design from scratch'... i can smell the BS from here... The only good thing is Merc technically cant 'give them' a 2021 car- they will need to actual design that themselves - unless of course they are getting knock-off from that design too.

The only good that can come of this is when RP beat a Redbull in a race and then Marko and Horner get all moany and silly.. then i will take my hat off to the Copy cats at RP =D>
Who said this? Any team member/ employee?

Sounds a bit dubious to me. I suspect there was some IP sharing, but to actually physically receive cars is a bit over the top. One would think if RP really have got any inputs, they will be in the form of design info or personnel exchange.

PowerandtheGlory
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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JRindt wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:33 am
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:34 am
yinlad wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:18 am


Lmao where are those comments I need a good laugh... Maybe the most ridiculous theory yet
Racing point- aka- 'off the back of a lorry...' :lol:

The full quote is
"I know for a fact that Racing point received 4 Chassis from Mercedes last November. Wheeled them in to the back door. Let’s bear in mind, that they test in the same wind tunnel on the weekends. Who knows what information is shared..."
The bargeboard area is 'Exactly' the same... so how can the TP quote ' Our design from scratch'... i can smell the BS from here... The only good thing is Merc technically cant 'give them' a 2021 car- they will need to actual design that themselves - unless of course they are getting knock-off from that design too.

The only good that can come of this is when RP beat a Redbull in a race and then Marko and Horner get all moany and silly.. then i will take my hat off to the Copy cats at RP =D>
Who said this? Any team member/ employee?

Sounds a bit dubious to me. I suspect there was some IP sharing, but to actually physically receive cars is a bit over the top. One would think if RP really have got any inputs, they will be in the form of design info or personnel exchange.
Its a member on this forum- of which we know there are employees or even ex-employees on here.
If you sent a file- then there’s a trail somebody can follow..
We’re not doing photocopies down your local cornershop (geddit...!!)
but if you are using a Merc windtunnel- there’s every reason to say “ one of our cars was on site the same day and about to go into the tunnel afterwards..’
Even if the guys working in the tunnel were using the W10 as a muse’
Or the guys watching the merc went on a 1 hour lunch break and said- “ere lads can you keep an eye on this while i go grab a greggs”...
Ohhhh lo and behold the RP is an exact copy.
They havent even attempted to cover it up... hahaha..
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

thestig84
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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JRindt wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:33 am
izzy wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:07 am
i can't immediately find the piece i read but those aren't identical are they? Given that they're all pretty similar with the combs banned. The side fins are much steeper on the RP and they look different lower down too, as far as we can see, and the proportions of the sawteeth are different. I think they can claim they designed it, even if it was obviously 'inspired by' the W10

They might need some other new parts before Oz tho... but they might be in the plan anyway
I don’t think the fins are much steeper at all. The pics are not for scale and the width of the rear wing end plates as a whole is different. So, the steeper fins on RP is just an illusion.
Well said. That is why I thought they look identical. Ted kravitz said something about the rear being different but I think he might be mistaken as every picture has that rear wing. I'm yet to find anything noticeably different!

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yinlad
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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JRindt wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:33 am
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:34 am
yinlad wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:18 am


Lmao where are those comments I need a good laugh... Maybe the most ridiculous theory yet
Racing point- aka- 'off the back of a lorry...' :lol:

The full quote is
"I know for a fact that Racing point received 4 Chassis from Mercedes last November. Wheeled them in to the back door. Let’s bear in mind, that they test in the same wind tunnel on the weekends. Who knows what information is shared..."
The bargeboard area is 'Exactly' the same... so how can the TP quote ' Our design from scratch'... i can smell the BS from here... The only good thing is Merc technically cant 'give them' a 2021 car- they will need to actual design that themselves - unless of course they are getting knock-off from that design too.

The only good that can come of this is when RP beat a Redbull in a race and then Marko and Horner get all moany and silly.. then i will take my hat off to the Copy cats at RP =D>
Who said this? Any team member/ employee?

Sounds a bit dubious to me. I suspect there was some IP sharing, but to actually physically receive cars is a bit over the top. One would think if RP really have got any inputs, they will be in the form of design info or personnel exchange.
It's pretty ridiculous. Why would they deliver cars to the factory, and why 4?! All of this, why, when they share a wind tunnel in the first place that would make quite the convenient location for anything they wanted to do together. Pure silly talk.

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El Scorchio
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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JRindt wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:33 am
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:34 am
yinlad wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:18 am


Lmao where are those comments I need a good laugh... Maybe the most ridiculous theory yet
Racing point- aka- 'off the back of a lorry...' :lol:

The full quote is
"I know for a fact that Racing point received 4 Chassis from Mercedes last November. Wheeled them in to the back door. Let’s bear in mind, that they test in the same wind tunnel on the weekends. Who knows what information is shared..."
The bargeboard area is 'Exactly' the same... so how can the TP quote ' Our design from scratch'... i can smell the BS from here... The only good thing is Merc technically cant 'give them' a 2021 car- they will need to actual design that themselves - unless of course they are getting knock-off from that design too.

The only good that can come of this is when RP beat a Redbull in a race and then Marko and Horner get all moany and silly.. then i will take my hat off to the Copy cats at RP =D>
Who said this? Any team member/ employee?

Sounds a bit dubious to me. I suspect there was some IP sharing, but to actually physically receive cars is a bit over the top. One would think if RP really have got any inputs, they will be in the form of design info or personnel exchange.
Nah it's not true. What actually happened was that Hamilton, Bottas, Stroll Jr and Perez drove all four cars very slowly in formation directly from one factory to the other one, entering through the front doors, all while displaying a big banner saying 'F you, Renault, McLaren, Ferrari and Red Bull'.

PowerandtheGlory
PowerandtheGlory
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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yinlad wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:30 pm
JRindt wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:33 am
PowerandtheGlory wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:34 am


Racing point- aka- 'off the back of a lorry...' :lol:

The full quote is
"I know for a fact that Racing point received 4 Chassis from Mercedes last November. Wheeled them in to the back door. Let’s bear in mind, that they test in the same wind tunnel on the weekends. Who knows what information is shared..."
The bargeboard area is 'Exactly' the same... so how can the TP quote ' Our design from scratch'... i can smell the BS from here... The only good thing is Merc technically cant 'give them' a 2021 car- they will need to actual design that themselves - unless of course they are getting knock-off from that design too.

The only good that can come of this is when RP beat a Redbull in a race and then Marko and Horner get all moany and silly.. then i will take my hat off to the Copy cats at RP =D>
Who said this? Any team member/ employee?

Sounds a bit dubious to me. I suspect there was some IP sharing, but to actually physically receive cars is a bit over the top. One would think if RP really have got any inputs, they will be in the form of design info or personnel exchange.
It's pretty ridiculous. Why would they deliver cars to the factory, and why 4?! All of this, why, when they share a wind tunnel in the first place that would make quite the convenient location for anything they wanted to do together. Pure silly talk.
They would take 4 because it's less conspicuous than a lone car going around- 4 because you would of course ask for the low and high drag versions- and you might even have different versions with ride height for Monaco etc. At the end of the day even though it sounds ridiculous - but they shared a Merc windtunnel and the car is a carbon copy of the W10-
We know this because RP borrwowed their own wintunnel to Gordon murray to build his new T50 surpercar (article in EVO) so they are basically taking models in and out of the tunnel all day while they are there, and then Ooops...How did that W10 car get in there?? Cue- general scratching of heads all round - then somebody says in a michael caine accent - "hold on lads ive got an idea....." it doesnt matter how they got the data- 3d scanner - wind tunnel model - tr(racing) paper, crayon, smartphone picture.... the car is exactly the same. I applaud their bashfullness, but its not the way i would have done it- not be so lazy as just to copy it piece for piece.. and for got sake just admit that you did copy it. Dont try to claim its a piece of your own work.. For year Toro rosso's design was made by a Adrian Newey/Redbull consultancy.. so basically they designed the toro rosso and he also did the Red bulls - we all know this.. So please Tracing point just be honest and say- yea we did just spend 3 weeks copying the design and then spend the rest of the winter playing Dorknite. :D
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn

Giblet
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Maybe we could talk about the actual team instead of conspiracy theories that are best, dubious.
Before I do anything I ask myself “Would an idiot do that?” And if the answer is yes, I do not do that thing. - Dwight Schrute

PowerandtheGlory
PowerandtheGlory
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Giblet wrote:
Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:16 pm
Maybe we could talk about the actual team instead of conspiracy theories that are best, dubious.
Fair enough- rant over..
“I don't believe in luck, luck is preparation and taking your opportunity” Ross Brawn