[ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Siskue brings a good point, but that Haas has at least the listed parts as "sort off" own designs. Just shows how difficult it is to make ruling airtight if teams are willing to push beyond what the sporting agreement dictates. In fact, don't know if it is an urban myth, but the story of explicitly having to write in a microwave manual NOT to dry you pets in it is such a idiocracy. everybody understands yuo should not do that, but if you can sue a company for not explicitly writing it out things will get written out. And people will be looking for ways around it.

And indeed Big Tea, you cannot unlearn what has been learned (illegaly) so making a small adjustment won't cut it. Therefor my idea of a weight to be carried. That way they can keep the parts, even be free to built upon them, but for the rest of the time they use this chassis (which will still be 1,5 year) still be in a place on the grid they would have been without using these parts, e.g. where they are on their own merit.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Phil wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 12:45 pm
Sieper wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:40 am
The B team does not need to win. Merely giving extra strategic options to the A team will suffice. Toto has even bluntly stated this was a important consideration. Now this has been found to be illegal but still allowed to stand (with a fine for the B team some points reduction for the B team, and a reprimande each race, which has no consequences). It is very beneficial to both teams indeed. But illegal and detrimental to other teams.
This is nothing new. Heck, RedBull legally owns two teams and have way more power than either Ferrari or Mercedes have influence over their customer teams.

Technically, only RedBull has an A and B team. Mercedes and Ferrari only have customer teams. I wouldn't expect Mercedes be able to phone up, lets say Racing Point, during a race and say "hey, Ferrari coming up, make sure you stay out and cost them more time". This would be very bad image wise too.
This goes now totally offtopic but last year Brazil and the Williams (the pit moment (in lap) and the unsafe release). Or just last race, Max was vulnerable in Q2 on the whites and Russell went out on reds. Reds that maybe last 2 laps in race trim certainly after qualy). If either him and Sainz, Ocon etc. would have won a few tenths Max would have started P11 and race won (likely) by Lewis. My point, the A team does not need to call the B team, they know how they can come in the good book themselves. And who knows what is discussed behind closed doors. They certainly won't come on the radio during the race. But indeed a small inter teamboss telephone call might still come during a race. who would ever know.

To come back on topic. Toto has explicitly stated it was a consideration that RP would mingle with their competitors. Even last race if hulk could have kept Max behind him that first stint (or at least part of it) maybe lewis could have already won the 11 seconds he needed.

It is not only RB that is (potentially) hurting, it is other teams that are loosing millions in TV money that are hurting even more. Yes RP gets a reprimand every race, but Nothing more. That is not right.
Just a personal interest, a Family recreating a WW2 May 1940 Dutch warbird from scratch: https://www.facebook.com/FlyingFokkerD21/

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Phil
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Don't be absurd. The privateer teams are fighting for survival and every single cent and for them, finishing with points is everything that matters. They don't have time to worry about strategic choices for what might be beneficial for their engine supplier (without knowing their strategy). You're also repeating to use A and B team when there is no such thing in this context. The correct terminology is customer. They are not owned by Mercedes and there's no benefit for them to effectively cheat in order to help their engine supplier. It's absurd to assume Haas will do this for Ferrari, it's absurd to think any Mercedes customer will do it for Mercedes. They all have their own fight to battle.

And as for what Toto said; I doubt he meant that they had control over a team and could use them as pawns.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Those things are not mutually exclusive and mostly that is not needed. Hulk was in P3. Plan succeeded. If Max would have not passed him early in stint 1 the race would have been Lewis'.

I will use Customer from now on, which is also the correct term, but in case of the RP this year it is so akin a Mercedes that is is not "just" a case of being a customer. That was my reasoning.

Also, doing something like trying to get into Q3 on reds is not cheating, If Russell made it it would be great for him. If that meant Max would have missed Q3 it would have been a happy byproduct. So customer teams can do things (on their own) that are good for the works team, whilst not hurting themselves (that much). Having an unsafe release like 2019 Brazil might be cheating but lets write that up as an honoust mistake.
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adrianjordan
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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I see Stroll's influence extends to the Aston Martin Road division....

Saw a Ford Kuga today badged as an Aston Martin DBX 😂😂😂😂
Since I've ordered an electric car, does that mean I should start watching Formula E?

haza
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Raleigh
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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haza wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:09 pm
Colin Kolles is a blackmailing crook with a very public grudge against Toto Wolff, he has zero credibility.

Mchamilton
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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adrianjordan wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:59 am
I see Stroll's influence extends to the Aston Martin Road division....

Saw a Ford Kuga today badged as an Aston Martin DBX 😂😂😂😂
meant to be the best performance/luxury SUV on sale btw

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adrianjordan
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Mchamilton wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 2:48 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:59 am
I see Stroll's influence extends to the Aston Martin Road division....

Saw a Ford Kuga today badged as an Aston Martin DBX 😂😂😂😂
meant to be the best performance/luxury SUV on sale btw
Still looks like a Kuga to me though lol
Since I've ordered an electric car, does that mean I should start watching Formula E?

dans79
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Raleigh wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:48 pm
haza wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:09 pm
Colin Kolles is a blackmailing crook with a very public grudge against Toto Wolff, he has zero credibility.
yep, the author even discreetly pointed that out in the article.
He also raised questions over Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff. A major dispute between the pair is known to have taken place in mid-2013.
160 96 91 6

zibby43
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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dans79 wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:57 pm
Raleigh wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:48 pm
haza wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 1:09 pm
Colin Kolles is a blackmailing crook with a very public grudge against Toto Wolff, he has zero credibility.
yep, the author even discreetly pointed that out in the article.
He also raised questions over Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff. A major dispute between the pair is known to have taken place in mid-2013.
Yeah, I’m a little embarrassed for RaceFans. They’ve been rolling out clickbait lately.

And to label what Kolles did as a “dispute” - rather than blackmail, seems like a borderline unethical omission in an article like this.

I think little Dieter is still salty that his big exclusive article claiming Merc were going to pull out of F1 (which, according to his article, would’ve happened months ago now) was completely wrong.

Shame. Used to really respect those guys.

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proteus
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Now i know how they managed to copy Mercs legally:
https://www.google.com/search?q=mercede ... Vubfg2obMM
If i would get the money to start my own F1 team, i would revive Arrows

Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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I think Racing Point have proven that they value their own results above doing Mercedes any favours. Stroll held up Bottas during the crucial opening laps and Perez got a penalty for holding up Hamilton "The Stewards reviewed the video and telemetry evidence. The driver ignored blue flags from at least Turn 6 to Turn 1 of the following lap."

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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Wynters, this is more you wanting to say it than it actually being true;

Stroll moved well out of the way quick enough. That was an incredibly easy overtake. No way Max would have been let through that easily should he have fallen victim to Lance Stroll at the start. In fact, that was my major fear for this race, Max getting stuck behind the RPs at start.

Max spent like 11 laps in the wake of Lewis (and with Bottas on his heels he had to move in to there to prevent an undercut). His softs were destroyed and Lewis could still extend the stint easily. Stroll "hold up" played no significant role in that, it lasted way to short. After that Lewis next two stints on yellow could be shorter and any chance of a Verstappen attack (which was not in the cards anyway) could be totally written off. Perez and Kvyat were both very surprised by the blue flag penalty. A long time ago that hose have been given. How did that hurt Hamilton though, he was cruising along with 25 seconds to spare. If he was chased by Verstappen I would feel it is a valid argument, but now there was nothing to fear for Hamilton, so any hold up was of no (ok very little) consequence and rather was just a misjudgment by Perez (gained him nothing/little, cost him 5 seconds).
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Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:24 pm
Wynters, this is more you wanting to say it than it actually being true;

Stroll moved well out of the way quick enough. That was an incredibly easy overtake. No way Max would have been let through that easily should he have fallen victim to Lance Stroll at the start. In fact, that was my major fear for this race, Max getting stuck behind the RPs at start.
After 5 laps is 'quick enough'? Why not move immediately? Or, at the very latest, end of Lap 1 on the start/finish straight? I'm actually amazed Bottas spent 5 laps behind him, given he's driving the state-of-the-art Mercedes and Stroll is in an the inferior, obsolete version. The lap Bottas cleared Stroll, he went 2.2 seconds faster.

Bear in mind that Racing Point aren't in a race with Mercedes. Every tenth of a second lost worrying about Bottas is a tenth of a second lost to Sainz, Leclerc, Vettel, Albon, Gasly, Norris, etc. During the four racing laps Bottas was behind him, Stroll averaged a 1:25.363 The instant Bottas passes him, his pace drop to the high 1:24s and stays there for the next 13 laps. That's two seconds he lost to his actual competition. If you don't think Stroll has a chance to finish the race ahead of Bottas then losing the time fighting him and risking contact defending hard has NO upside and a whole world full of downsides.

Those early laps Bottas was trapped behind Stroll were potentially crucial. We know the Mercedes are quickest in those opening couple of laps. Hamilton pulled his 1.5 seconds on Verstappen in the first lap. If Bottas had been right on his bumper at the end of lap 1, with maximum energy already harvested and DAS prepared tyres, do you think he'd have been better placed to overtake than on, say lap 7, when he finally caught up to him again?

I'm not sure Bottas would be able to pass Verstappen anyway (Max is much better wheel-to-wheel), but I think he'd have his best chance when the performance delta was 1+ seconds.
Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:24 pm
Perez and Kvyat were both very surprised by the blue flag penalty.
Ironic that Kvyat seems to have got his penalty for holding up Verstappen. Agree they did seem surprised, but if it was Turn 6 to Turn 1 as the Stewards said (and if it wasn't, the teams would easily win any appeal) then they've only themselves to blame.
Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:24 pm
How did that hurt Hamilton though, he was cruising along with 25 seconds to spare.
He hadn't pitted so the gap was, in reality, smaller. However, the real point is, if Racing Point do what Mercedes tell them to do, why impede Hamilton at all? Surely, Mercedes would simply order Perez out of the way?

Why not order Perez and Stroll to impede Verstappen? Why not order Latiffi, Russell and Ocon to do the same? This is the problem, if there is a giant, multi-team conspiracy designed to slow down an (already slower) competitor, why isn't it active all the time? Why does it only appear a couple of times a season, in random races, often once the Championships are decided? Kvyat impeded Verstappen at this race. Does this mean Mercedes have got to him too? Or is it a sign that these events are largely random and it's only confirmation bias that makes them seemingly part of a greater pattern?

To be honest, if Mercedes were controlling Racing Point, Bottas would've jumped Verstappen at the first pit stops.
If I'm Conspiracy Wolfe, I've got two options.

1) Reactive: The instant Verstappen pits, I order Stroll to switch to a two stop, turn up his engine to Quali mode and push. Even with Red Bull's excellent pitstop, Stroll has a decent chance of being in front of him when he comes out (we know from Stroll's post-race interview that Racing Point were trying to one stop so they were heavily managing their tyres).
2) Active: Bottas closes up to sub-2 seconds (as he did the lap before Verstappen pitted) and, as Verstappen passes the pit entrance, Stroll receives the order to extend his stint and increase tyre management. Bottas 'coincidentally' dives in to the pits and comes out in front of the now much slower Stroll. He puts in a Quali lap and easily undercuts Verstappen.

Both of these are easy to arrange. Neither happened.