[ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Conspiracy theory. That is nice.

Would stroll immediately have to go out of his way to let Bottas passed? Would that be a good idea with the current RP copycar controversy? No. Or just have Bottas save up energy for a few laps to make the pass on the straight. Stroll did NOTHING to defend. Bottas still had more then enough time behind Max to kill of his first set of tires in the wake of Lewis. Max never got far out of reach as Lewis was waiting for Bottas to get on Max arse right from the start.
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dans79
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:24 pm
How did that hurt Hamilton though, he was cruising along with 25 seconds to spare.
It doesn't matter if he has 1 minute to spare, or one second, drivers are required to get out of the way when shown a blue flag, or they can receive a penalty.

I can't find the exact rule, because I thinks in in one of the many apendixes the FIA publishes, so wiki will have to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_O ... ions#Flags
During a race, a light blue flag waved on the track warns the driver that he is about to be lapped by a faster car and must not intentionally impede their progress, such as blocking a passing manoeuver. A driver may incur penalties if he ignores 3 successive blue flags.
Also Sergio should have known he was going to get a penalty.

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/942572/1/ ... -penalties
After the 66-lap race, Perez labelled his penalty “unfair” as he felt he had allowed Hamilton through at the best moment, but F1 race director Michael Masi said the the stewards took a dim view of both drivers “clearly excessive” breaches of the rules.

Masi revealed the subject of harsher enforcement of blue flag penalties had been discussed during the Styrian Grand Prix weekend in Austria in July.

“Both Sergio and Dany Kvyat got a penalty for failing to obey the blue flags,” Masi explained. “My view with both of those is they were effectively took way too long.

“It was something we discussed at the driver meeting following the first Austria meeting, so the Styrian GP. It was discussed that there would be much more of a crackdown on blue flags this year and this is the first place we’ve seen two cars in particular [breach the rules].

“I think the regulations says something along the lines of you should let the other car pass at the first available opportunity
“It seemed to be that after that from the blue flag report I got, it was acknowledged up and down the pit lane and I got a number of managers ring to say they were really glad to see people penalised for not obeying blue flags.”
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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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That not getting out of the way was just lazy driving. Happened to 2 drivers and funnily apparently they both hindered a driver from their own engine suppliers works team. But it certainly is not prove that RP does not or will not make it a bit more easy for their works team engine supplier if it comes down to it.

The one thing in this race was Stroll - Bottas. And offcourse Stroll drives his own race but he could have defended hard, which he certainly did not do.

Now we go into hypothesis, which I do not like but he he could have battled Bottas possibly all race (likely Bottas would have escaped them at some point). In fact, he and Perez could have tried the same strategy as Hamilton and Bottas now did to Max in the first stint. Not very likely as the Merc lapped them in the end but OK. Would it have been Max caught behind Stroll I think they would have tried that. But there is no way to be sure about such kind of assumptions. That is why I don't like to do the guessing game too much. But certainly the RBR pit wall was afraid of that as they extended Max' first stint to come out in front of them. And at that point Max would otherwise have had much newer rubber. But me making that hypothesis is thus not so strange RBR strategy team was certainly fearful of it.

The only thing I am sure of was that I saw Bottas quite easily pass Stroll.
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dans79
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:08 pm
That not getting out of the way was just lazy driving. Happened to 2 drivers and funnily apparently they both hindered a driver from their own engine suppliers works team. But it certainly is not prove that RP does not or will not make it a bit more easy for their works team engine supplier if it comes down to it.
imo, any driver with brains isn't going to fight a car they know will ultimately beat them. By defending against a car they know they can't beat they lose time to a car they can potentially beat.
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Phil
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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I find it quite frankly absurd that this is still being discussed. Racing Point is its own team. They have sponsors and they have an image to upheld. Helping their engine supplier while hurting their own races does not make any sense whatsoever. They are not a B-Team or anything; they are a customer and they merely buy certain parts and an engine. The same applies to Williams and even Haas and Alfa. Some of them just make some more money because they are happy to put one of Mercedes Junior drivers in one of their seats. That's no different than hiring a sponsored driver (aka pay-driver) who pays to drive.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Leclerc defended on Hamilton Silverstone 2 eventhough it was detrimental to His tires that needed to go very long As it stood already. Stroll did nothing on Bottas and if you are here sitting and telling me it is even absurd to think he would have let Max by just as easily Then I think that in itself is absurd.
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Phil
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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I can’t believe you are comparing Stroll and Leclerc here. Also two overtakes in two very different circumstances.

But if you want to keep believing that there is some direct phone line from Toto to the two Racing point drivers (despite having probably the most dominant car & driver combo in the history of the sport), i guess keep on doing that.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:55 pm
Conspiracy theory. That is nice.
It's not meant as an insult. It's literally an accurate description.

Conspiracy - a secret plan by a group to do something
Theory - a series of ideas yet to be proven
Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:55 pm
Would stroll immediately have to go out of his way to let Bottas passed? Would that be a good idea with the current RP copycar controversy? No. Or just have Bottas save up energy for a few laps to make the pass on the straight. Stroll did NOTHING to defend. Bottas still had more then enough time behind Max to kill of his first set of tires in the wake of Lewis. Max never got far out of reach as Lewis was waiting for Bottas to get on Max arse right from the start.
You address none of the points I raised pointing out that all of these assumptions are unlikely.

I'll summarise:-
Stroll hurt his race by holding Bottas behind him. The lap times are clear.
Lap 2: 1:25.189
Lap 3: 1:24.823
Lap 4: 1:25.410
Lap 5: 1:26.029
Now, without having to deal with Bottas
Lap 6: 1:24.850
Lap 7: 1:24.979
Lap 8: 1:24.623
Lap 9: 1:24.819
lap 10: 1:24.745
Lap 11: 1:24.917
Lap 12: 1:24.928

There is a clear pattern.

Stroll would have lost more time and might have DNFed if he'd fought Bottas harder. Yes, it was a boring pass. That's what happens with DRS at the end of the main straight. Fighting more, swerving onto the marbles, risking hitting Bottas, keeping Bottas behind him for another lap, all have would hurt his race even further. What possible benefit would he have had for battling Bottas for more laps? Please, provide just one.

Bottas closed up on Verstappen but he'd lost all the advantages of a pre-charged Mercedes PU, DAS prepared tyres and tyres that had been fighting for 5 laps rather than simply following. Do you think he had his best chance of overtaking when the performance differential was at it's highest, in lap 1? Or in lap 7, when his tyres were in worse condition than Verstappen after battling Stroll and then closing up to Verstappen and Verstappen's tyres were up to optimum temperature?
Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:08 pm
But certainly the RBR pit wall was afraid of that as they extended Max' first stint to come out in front of them. And at that point Max would otherwise have had much newer rubber. But me making that hypothesis is thus not so strange RBR strategy team was certainly fearful of it.
As were Mercedes, otherwise they would've undercut Verstappen.

If Racing Point follow Mercedes' directions, then why did any of this happen?
If Racing Point (and Williams, etc) are willing to damage their races to help Mercedes beat an already slower car, why don't they do it in every race and why are they so bad at it? Why did Verstappen manage to lap all of them but, mysteriously, wasn't impeded any more than Bottas was (and was impeded less than Hamilton)?
Why did Stroll even overtake Bottas in the first place?

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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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When have I ever said that? That RP follows mercedes commands. Never and nowhere. That is why I also object to these terms conspiracy theory. That is the problem, the gross overreacting and assuming things. I merely pointed out that RP is (very) likely to give an RBR a harder time then a Merc. Nobody needs to command them.

One advantage for stroll taking the fight to Bottas is possibly finishing ahead. Like Max did in 16 versus kimi (unlikely as I stated before) Another could be showing he gots what it takes, like leclerc in Silverstone. If we go down the “Do the sensible thing only” why did Stroll then even attack at start. Risk. Come on, racing is racing, Perez was even announcing pre race he would be attacking Max”. The cars that lapped them all (Merc 1 and 1 and RBR 1). So is it truely that “absurd” in the words of Phil to think they would not have let max bye that easily? Perez even advertised it.

DAS prepared tires after 5 laps? Now you are just searching.

I did read a good point mercedes afraid of getting stuck behind RP (in case of Bottas undercut attempt). but Otoh, or maybe better said, Bottas was still not quite on Max’ tail. And comming out of pit on top of RP would be a risk, they would then really have to get out the way no ifs and buts and then this forum would have exploded.

I will not reply on each and everything you said as a lot of That was purely hypothetical. That is fine, you cannot always get around a hypothese, but if you go and argue that it usually ends up in nothing.

My point was simple. Stroll left Bottas by and I don’t think Max would have received the seem level of sensibility.
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dans79
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:57 pm
One advantage for stroll taking the fight to Bottas is possibly finishing ahead. Like Max did in 16 versus kimi (unlikely as I stated before) Another could be showing he gots what it takes, like leclerc in Silverstone.
IMO, no way Stroll finishes ahead. It was the first stint and the merc had substantially more race pace. If Bottas couldn't pass, Merc would have under/overcut stroll. leclerc and lewis where on their final stint with a few laps remaining, and leclerc was safe from other cars behind.

It's like war/chess, you need to pick your battles carefully.
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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Yes. And no ofcourse not, but I was asked to come up with one reason. But here we (also becoming repetitive) go into the hypothetical. Would it have been Max would Stroll also just let him go. I don’t think so. And I don’t think that is too preposterous. And not because Mercedes asked that, but Just as he can then shine for the star. Perez wouldn’t have battled stroll too hard afterwards and I think the RPs had a considerable margin so Stroll could afford to invest some tire life into his reputation.
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Wynters
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:57 pm
DAS prepared tires after 5 laps? Now you are just searching.
DAS gives them the ability to work the front tyres earlier and to a finer degree than any other car. With so long spent stationary on the grid, having that extra level of control gives them an edge for the early corners and maybe more of the first lap. It's the same with the Safety car (although, I suspect, a significantly greater benefit in that situation). Once everyone gets their tyres up to temperature, that advantage is gone.

My apologies if I misjudged your initial comment.

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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Wynters wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:28 am
Sieper wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:57 pm
DAS prepared tires after 5 laps? Now you are just searching.
DAS gives them the ability to work the front tyres earlier and to a finer degree than any other car. With so long spent stationary on the grid, having that extra level of control gives them an edge for the early corners and maybe more of the first lap. It's the same with the Safety car (although, I suspect, a significantly greater benefit in that situation). Once everyone gets their tyres up to temperature, that advantage is gone.

My apologies if I misjudged your initial comment.
Thanks for that! I can see why, I too sometimes misread the intention behind a posters intent. Once we all get to know each other a bit better it is also easier to place the remarks. I don't think I am for the most part that far of base but I do have a tendency to search for the thought pattern behind actions I see on track or from a team and there one can easily make inaccurate judgement, you simply never know for sure.

And you brought some good points to the table so that helped me in changing my mind a bit, which is not easily achieved :D and a good thing when it happens.
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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Sieper wrote:
Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:09 am
Yes. And no ofcourse not, but I was asked to come up with one reason. But here we (also becoming repetitive) go into the hypothetical. Would it have been Max would Stroll also just let him go. I don’t think so. And I don’t think that is too preposterous. And not because Mercedes asked that, but Just as he can then shine for the star. Perez wouldn’t have battled stroll too hard afterwards and I think the RPs had a considerable margin so Stroll could afford to invest some tire life into his reputation.
I think you need to look at the gap in quali. There is no point in fighting a team that is more than 1 sec per lap faster than you. It is an exercise in futility. While Max was .2 of a second faster, certainly you can keep him behind.

I also agree with fighting Merc would only risk ruining their own race.

I don't think there are team orders but if you think so, whoever was for that argument, you've picked the wrong race as a basis for that argument. The 2 teams would have to be much closer in quali.

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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Racing Point F1 Team - Mercedes

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Yet Bottas was never able to even launch an attack on Max. But I see you actually agree with my expectation that RP would have defended on Max. Which is also one of the reasons they now have this car, in the words of not me but Toto Wolf.
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