[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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lio007
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Tomorrow is a PU-meeting in Portimao. But I'm afraid Ferrari won't accept a development freeze.
It will be interesting what solution RBR will end up with.

Mansell89
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Joined: 22 Feb 2015, 19:21

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Engine freeze would be crazy unless Red Bull think that Honda have got a major step coming before they part?

Ferrari surely not going to agree given the Merc advantage.

Is a Honda U-turn possible- what would it take for the FIA to encourage Honda and any new teams to come?

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Wouter
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Mansell89 wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 19:32
Engine freeze would be crazy

unless Red Bull think that Honda have got a major step coming before they part?
Exactly! :wink:
The Power of Dreams!

NL_Fer
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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El Scorchio wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 18:31
Not sure if it’s been mentioned on here but just mentioned on the TV that RBR will take over the Honda engine and develop it with an Austrian firm.

Also that Merc apparently are happy with the engine freeze Red Bull would want. Ferrari not so, I presume! Could be some fireworks there...
If Redbull would have to develop the powerunit, they need all the IP from Honda and translations of Japanese info. Also setup a development team. Not so easy and maybe Honda is not willing to let the IP leave the country.

If they would freeze development, Honda could just create a separate factory in Japan (like Mugen) which can built the engine, using the IP and sell the units to Redbull. Than Redbull and AVL could focus on programming the mappings and ERS control.

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ispano6
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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NL_Fer wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 20:22
El Scorchio wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 18:31
Not sure if it’s been mentioned on here but just mentioned on the TV that RBR will take over the Honda engine and develop it with an Austrian firm.

Also that Merc apparently are happy with the engine freeze Red Bull would want. Ferrari not so, I presume! Could be some fireworks there...
If Redbull would have to develop the powerunit, they need all the IP from Honda and translations of Japanese info. Also setup a development team. Not so easy and maybe Honda is not willing to let the IP leave the country.

If they would freeze development, Honda could just create a separate factory in Japan (like Mugen) which can built the engine, using the IP and sell the units to Redbull. Than Redbull and AVL could focus on programming the mappings and ERS control.
Why would they create another factory for this and who would pay for this? Besides, there already is a Honda factory in Kumamoto that can do this. The issue isn't having the infrastructure, the issue is whether they can level up existing engineers or hire the right personnel to continue to develop the areas that still have development potential. What needs to happen is knowledge transfer which should not be underestimated.

NL_Fer
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Joined: 15 Jun 2014, 09:48

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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ispano6 wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 20:44
NL_Fer wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 20:22
El Scorchio wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 18:31
Not sure if it’s been mentioned on here but just mentioned on the TV that RBR will take over the Honda engine and develop it with an Austrian firm.

Also that Merc apparently are happy with the engine freeze Red Bull would want. Ferrari not so, I presume! Could be some fireworks there...
If Redbull would have to develop the powerunit, they need all the IP from Honda and translations of Japanese info. Also setup a development team. Not so easy and maybe Honda is not willing to let the IP leave the country.

If they would freeze development, Honda could just create a separate factory in Japan (like Mugen) which can built the engine, using the IP and sell the units to Redbull. Than Redbull and AVL could focus on programming the mappings and ERS control.
Why would they create another factory for this and who would pay for this? Besides, there already is a Honda factory in Kumamoto that can do this. The issue isn't having the infrastructure, the issue is whether they can level up existing engineers or hire the right personnel to continue to develop the areas that still have development potential. What needs to happen is knowledge transfer which should not be underestimated.
Create it on paper as a independent entity.

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nzjrs
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Mansell89 wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 19:32
Engine freeze would be crazy unless Red Bull think that Honda have got a major step coming before they part?

Ferrari surely not going to agree given the Merc advantage.

Is a Honda U-turn possible- what would it take for the FIA to encourage Honda and any new teams to come?
I think the $200 million buy-in has made it rather unattractive for new teams to come in... on the plus side, it increased Williams value on the books by about $140M.

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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lio007 wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 19:02
Tomorrow is a PU-meeting in Portimao. But I'm afraid Ferrari won't accept a development freeze.
It will be interesting what solution RBR will end up with.
The freeze would be for 2022, so Ferrari would have the rest of this year, and all of next year to bring their power unit up to snuff. Big question is, should Ferrari be allowed to catch up in terms of engine development? We wouldn't want a tortise and the hare scenario where the others ramp down their development allowing Ferrari to catch up only for Ferrari to overtake them, and then locking them into an advantage.

If a freeze is going to happen it has to have the FIA involved to make sure that the power units achieve some sort of parity before they're frozen.

There is a good potential marketing aspect from freezing the power units, especially for curious tech geeks that would like to know more about what goes into these very secretive engines.

Once the development is frozen, or parts become standardized we can get glimpses into how these technologies contribute to the engine's efficiency.
Saishū kōnā

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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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It would be sound to freeze development for a few years (once parity is achieved) in these Corona Hit years.

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bigblue
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Joined: 01 Oct 2014, 12:18

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Freezing development is insane, for the obvious reason that whoever is ahead, stays ahead. That's not competition.

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ispano6
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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NL_Fer wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 21:18
ispano6 wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 20:44
NL_Fer wrote:
25 Oct 2020, 20:22


If Redbull would have to develop the powerunit, they need all the IP from Honda and translations of Japanese info. Also setup a development team. Not so easy and maybe Honda is not willing to let the IP leave the country.

If they would freeze development, Honda could just create a separate factory in Japan (like Mugen) which can built the engine, using the IP and sell the units to Redbull. Than Redbull and AVL could focus on programming the mappings and ERS control.
Why would they create another factory for this and who would pay for this? Besides, there already is a Honda factory in Kumamoto that can do this. The issue isn't having the infrastructure, the issue is whether they can level up existing engineers or hire the right personnel to continue to develop the areas that still have development potential. What needs to happen is knowledge transfer which should not be underestimated.
Create it on paper as a independent entity.
So you mean RedBull creates an independent company that hires Honda engineers or pays for the knowledge transfer of the PU operation, control/data center logistics and real-time analysis of the PU health management etc.

There was an article that Mugen stated they wouldn't be able to take over the F1 program due to the PU complexity. Mugen is an independent entity and not equipped or staffed to develop the PU 2022 onward. It's probably more to do with combustion design/efficiency, physics and chemistry as it relates to the biofuel composition and energy recovery. RBT may already be planning with ExxonMobil to accelerate the 2022 fuel and try and get Honda to commit to knowledge transfer of the MGU-H and MGU-K while RedBull help Honda F1 UK develop the ES. The latest F1 Sokuho and Auto Sport allude to the fact Honda will be leaving RBT in limbo and that there will need to be a proper exit strategy. Hopefully Honda execs realize the brand reputation is at stake.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/70978/mu ... gone-.html

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Weather will be much better next race, all tires will work just fine, little difference between the soft and medium, hard will work, but require a lot of front tire hustling to keep them in the temperature window. Doesn't matter, you have to attack the corners to be fast here anyway. Only Raikkonen and Vettel are old enough to have raced here in an F1 car.

Looking like ~18 degree weather for the weekend, clear and sunny, not much wind.

Pit around lap 23-24, then hards to the end? Big difference in performance between mediums and hard, but hard is the only one that can make it over half distance, the soft will feel amazing then the oversteer will set in, the mediums will be more consistent and only a hair slower but they won't last much longer either. The difference is around 3 laps for them to start going off.
Saishū kōnā

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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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bigblue wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 01:04
Freezing development is insane, for the obvious reason that whoever is ahead, stays ahead. That's not competition.
That’s why it has to be on parity.

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etusch
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Joined: 22 Feb 2009, 23:09
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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bigblue wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 01:04
Freezing development is insane, for the obvious reason that whoever is ahead, stays ahead. That's not competition.
So what about freezing this season's car for next season and stopping engine upgrades ?

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JordanMugen
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Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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etusch wrote:
26 Oct 2020, 11:50
So what about freezing this season's car for next season and stopping engine upgrades ?
In combination with measures like ballast or fiddling fuel flow to equalise the performance of all the entrants, that could be quite pragmatic indeed! :) As an experiment, a season of F1 where the Williams, Mercedes and everyone between lap at the same rate would be rather gripping, much like the GT racing that uses the same balance-of-performance principle. :D

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