[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
User avatar
diffuser
230
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:55 pm
Its the cumulative total over thousands of parts.

In any manufacturing, there is variance. PERIOD. If it is watched, and all of the lightest parts (1000+) of the bunch are directed towards a single chassis build, that chassis will have an edge over the other (by several kg), due to more available ballast. And the Engines are DEFINITELY run on the dyno before going into the cars... It has been spoken about, over and over and over by the teams since the 2006 2.4l V8 days. Most of the open discussion was about how the Factory teams cherry pick the best of the bunch, and sell the customer teams the rest. That can ONLY happen if they are broken-in and tested on the dyno before disbursement.

I cannot believe that ANY "serious" race engine would be built and installed without a Dyno break-in period.... Even YouTube racers do that. #-o

Yeah, I'm not buying what you're selling. This is Formula 1, not this old house.

2006 is another life time ago. They ran one engine per race back then, not the same as today, where they need to last 6 or 7 races. Every KM counts. For me it very plausable that the parts for (ICE, TC Turbo Charger, MGU-H) are manufactured to tolerances as low as 0.0001. Then it's easy for them to run it in FP1 and dump the old and then run in FP2.

But I have no idea what they do. I'm a software engineer by trade, so we don't have to do any of that.

User avatar
Zynerji
112
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

Post

I would expect that the reliability requirements would make pre-testing on a dyno (for leaks if nothing else) even MORE mandatory.

I refuse to believe that any engine run in F1 was not broken in properly on a dyno load cell. That single act of Quality Control seems almost simplistic in understanding.

rogazilla
rogazilla
24
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:35 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

Post

I can't believe they would allow the variance in components to the point where it would make a difference. Even on production car, when engine builder would build their engine, the more sophisticated ones like some of the well known Porsche engine builders, would hand pick the pistons and other components and measures and balances each pieces to within their specs. They don't just take a set of 6 pistons out of box and slap them in but rather picked out a larger amount of batch. There is no way they don't do this to a higher precisions in such complex PU in F1. I would believe all the components are made in quantities where they can precisely put together to allow the exact spec out of each set of PU.

User avatar
Wouter
580
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

Post

I translated some headlines, because it is in Dutch. From 12.55 min he talks about Max, the team and Perez.
With former Formula 1 engineer and BMW team boss Ernest Knoors, we look back on the Formula 1 season in 2020 and look a little ahead to next season.

Is Sergio Perez the right man next to Max Verstappen?
"I know Sergio, because I worked with him when it was still called Sauber, with the Ferrari engines", Knoors starts.
He argues the following about the collaboration with Perez: "He is really good on Sunday, but technically, in terms of feedback, no,
I wouldn't count him among the top players. The way he handles the tires is a lot like the way Max handles the tires. "

“He is a pure racer, he can really race. But he is also someone who brings his own opinion, his own personality to a team. And that puts things on edge a bit. If the team management can deal with this, then it is positive, but what you must prevent is that it does not have a negative effect, so that engineers protect data, do not consult each other. That can quickly degenerate into a very negative atmosphere, and you have to prevent that. "

User avatar
PlatinumZealot
525
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

Post

Wouter wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:02 pm
I translated some headlines, because it is in Dutch. From 12.55 min he talks about Max, the team and Perez.
With former Formula 1 engineer and BMW team boss Ernest Knoors, we look back on the Formula 1 season in 2020 and look a little ahead to next season.

Is Sergio Perez the right man next to Max Verstappen?
"I know Sergio, because I worked with him when it was still called Sauber, with the Ferrari engines", Knoors starts.
He argues the following about the collaboration with Perez: "He is really good on Sunday, but technically, in terms of feedback, no,
I wouldn't count him among the top players. The way he handles the tires is a lot like the way Max handles the tires. "

“He is a pure racer, he can really race. But he is also someone who brings his own opinion, his own personality to a team. And that puts things on edge a bit. If the team management can deal with this, then it is positive, but what you must prevent is that it does not have a negative effect, so that engineers protect data, do not consult each other. That can quickly degenerate into a very negative atmosphere, and you have to prevent that. "
He is lacking credibility. He
Look how long ago that was. Not to mention
inherent biases.

He reminds me of Mark Priestly. Everything Mark said about Lewis contradicts with what other person's in the team said.
.. OG.. OG.. OG.. OG..

User avatar
Big Tea
156
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

Post

rogazilla wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:55 pm
I can't believe they would allow the variance in components to the point where it would make a difference. Even on production car, when engine builder would build their engine, the more sophisticated ones like some of the well known Porsche engine builders, would hand pick the pistons and other components and measures and balances each pieces to within their specs. They don't just take a set of 6 pistons out of box and slap them in but rather picked out a larger amount of batch. There is no way they don't do this to a higher precisions in such complex PU in F1. I would believe all the components are made in quantities where they can precisely put together to allow the exact spec out of each set of PU.
They undoubtedly chose the top 1% of components and 'blueprint' them for most series where there is mass production of how ever small a batch, but you can bet the worst item in the F1 stores will be better than the finest hand picked from a run of them.
I expect (I don't know) that in F1 each component is chosen within a very tight tolerances and then improved as much as is reasonably possible. Every component, for the team or customer.

If they do this, then it is going to be very difficult to pick the best from the best of the best, improved.
The bores will be as close to ideal as possible as will the pistons and the rings actually made to be the closest the engine will accept and still run, so nothing to gain here. Again, I expect all to be a perfect and matched as thyy can make them anyway, weight is just a second with a grinder, so all done. Same for valves etc.

Differences on the dyno, yes it must happen, but remember they will not know exactly why it is in 'this' case, so would they take the chance of having something outside the norm in their engine unless it was a very small %?

They are only allowed 6 engines for their own consumption, so say maybe 10 kept for them selves. Maybe, as you say the best 10, but any outside this small tolerance will be more likely to be disassembled to see why than be passed on to a customer team.
We are standing on the shoulders of Giants. So don't kick.

User avatar
Wouter
580
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:37 pm
Wouter wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:02 pm
I translated some headlines, because it is in Dutch. From 12.55 min he talks about Max, the team and Perez.
With former Formula 1 engineer and BMW team boss Ernest Knoors, we look back on the Formula 1 season in 2020 and look a little ahead to next season.

Is Sergio Perez the right man next to Max Verstappen?
"I know Sergio, because I worked with him when it was still called Sauber, with the Ferrari engines", Knoors starts.
He argues the following about the collaboration with Perez: "He is really good on Sunday, but technically, in terms of feedback, no,
I wouldn't count him among the top players. The way he handles the tires is a lot like the way Max handles the tires. "

“He is a pure racer, he can really race. But he is also someone who brings his own opinion, his own personality to a team. And that puts things on edge a bit. If the team management can deal with this, then it is positive, but what you must prevent is that it does not have a negative effect, so that engineers protect data, do not consult each other. That can quickly degenerate into a very negative atmosphere, and you have to prevent that. "
He is lacking credibility. He
Look how long ago that was. Not to mention
inherent biases.

He reminds me of Mark Priestly. Everything Mark said about Lewis contradicts with what other person's in the team said.

When I read your statements, you don't know at all who Ernest Knoors is and what his activities are.
. What does he say about Perez that is wrong? I am curious about your opinion.

User avatar
diffuser
230
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:49 pm
I would expect that the reliability requirements would make pre-testing on a dyno (for leaks if nothing else) even MORE mandatory.

I refuse to believe that any engine run in F1 was not broken in properly on a dyno load cell. That single act of Quality Control seems almost simplistic in understanding.
Ok, we don't have to agree.

User avatar
Wouter
580
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

Post

Yesterday, today and tomorrow there is a three-part interview online with Helmut Marko. It is in German, so just post the link of the articles in Google Translate for your own language choice.

https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... t-20122801

https://www.motorsport-total.com/formel ... n-20122901

I will edit the last artikel here tomorrow.

Marko: "Perez has to be within striking distance of Max in the race trim. In qualifying we will see - nobody has made it to his level so far. That can be a maximum of two tenths. So in the region - maybe even less."

"As a team we need a strength that we can fight Mercedes with two drivers. I assume that we will be opponents of Mercedes again. If Bottas is not having a pitch-black day like in Bahrain, he is fulfilling his role very good. We expect the same from Perez. "
"We have a one-year contract with Perez. Now we'll see how he performs, how that fits."

User avatar
lio007
381
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Austria

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

Post

Very interesting Portimao-GPS-analysis by AMuS: https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -portimao/

Image

Image

User avatar
Wouter
580
Joined: Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

Post

Even when he is on his holidays, he has to drive something with an engine in it. :lol:
Max is there with his Dutch friend Mark Cox.

Image

User avatar
lio007
381
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:03 pm
Location: Austria

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

Post

Wouter wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:22 am
Even when he is on his holidays, he has to drive something with an engine in it. :lol:
Max is there with his Dutch friend Mark Cox.

https://i.imgur.com/qdX6qTB.gif
I was surprised for a moment. Thought this was McLaren's No.1 Mechanic Marc Cox. :D

User avatar
Zynerji
112
Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

Post

diffuser wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:51 am
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:49 pm
I would expect that the reliability requirements would make pre-testing on a dyno (for leaks if nothing else) even MORE mandatory.

I refuse to believe that any engine run in F1 was not broken in properly on a dyno load cell. That single act of Quality Control seems almost simplistic in understanding.
Ok, we don't have to agree.
For curiosity sake, can we poll the audience?

I'm sure there is someone here that works in the business that can tell us about this non-trade secret. I'm happy to admit that I was wrong if we can get some expert level perspective involved with this yes/no question.

Scarbs, maybe?

the EDGE
the EDGE
122
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:31 pm
Location: Bedfordshire ENGLAND

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

Post

Zynerji wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:47 pm
diffuser wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:51 am
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:49 pm
I would expect that the reliability requirements would make pre-testing on a dyno (for leaks if nothing else) even MORE mandatory.

I refuse to believe that any engine run in F1 was not broken in properly on a dyno load cell. That single act of Quality Control seems almost simplistic in understanding.
Ok, we don't have to agree.
For curiosity sake, can we poll the audience?

I'm sure there is someone here that works in the business that can tell us about this non-trade secret. I'm happy to admit that I was wrong if we can get some expert level perspective involved with this yes/no question.

Scarbs, maybe?
Its my understanding that all engines are dyno tested before use, not to do so would be stupid. I've also heard it said many a time that the Manufacturer team then picks what they consider to be the best as minute differences will always occur, but I would imagine in todays high-tech world of engineering these differences would be insignificant

rogazilla
rogazilla
24
Joined: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:35 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

Post

Not f1 knowledge and the engine building classes I took were old stuff. However ICE are all fired up and usually revved to seal and seat the rings. Back in the days when I received my bikes from dealership I would ride it to red line through the gears for the first 5 to 10 miles. I do remember reading all the new nsx engines are Dyno broken in before installed into the car. I do find it illogical to put an ICE together and not go ahead and broken it in on a dyno consider the amount of time to put it all together in a car only to find it doesn’t fire or cylinder has less pressure.