[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Engines are most definitely broken in on the dyno.
This allows the wear surfaces to bed in in a controlled manner, normally with special engine lubricants which are changed along with all the filters after the initial running in.

At the same time each cylinder is individully adjusted to operate correctly and the engine performance in terms of output, heat rejection, friction, etc and health parameters (fluid temperatures, pressures etc) are documented and must satisfy certain criteria for the engine to actually go on a race car.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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What kind of performance differences are tolerated, do you have any idea? I would guess at only the very lowest differences as every 0,1 second of speed has costed Mercedes 14.3 million euro I think it was numbered on a f1 site recently. Just a Numbers game but still.

The making of the actual engine costs so much less then the development of it I think it would be incredibly strange if one driver gets a discernable better unit than another. That would be an unwarranted waste.
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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dunno if really relevant but I've built and tested both Scania truck engines and Wartsila marine diesels. One never leaves the factory without factory acceptance test. Can't imagine it being any different for cars and bikes let alone F1 engines.

O, and this Dutch guy is experienced in racing, which makes his speculations better than the average joe. Stil speculations though by the sound of it.

Summ:

Max is good. not god though
Lewis also good (Duh)
Better then Bottas
Cars are safer now
Merc is dominant
F1 is not as fun as it could be.

Not much we don't already know.
Last edited by Bandit1216 on Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Sieper wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:11 pm
What kind of performance differences are tolerated, do you have any idea? I would guess at only the very lowest differences as every 0,1 second of speed has costed Mercedes 14.3 million euro I think it was numbered on a f1 site recently. Just a Numbers game but still.

The making of the actual engine costs so much less then the development of it I think it would be incredibly strange if one driver gets a discernable better unit than another. That would be an unwarranted waste.
I don't know what the tolerances are but normally the manufacturer provides PU specifications and operating parameters to customers which serve as a form of contract so I would think any significant deviations from this would be frowned upon.

I would think that the limits come from experience gained on the pre-production engines used for development and validation which statistically speaking is quite a small population size so maybe the official performance figures are understanded by a couple standard deviations or so ?

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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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rogazilla wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:09 pm
Not f1 knowledge and the engine building classes I took were old stuff. However ICE are all fired up and usually revved to seal and seat the rings. Back in the days when I received my bikes from dealership I would ride it to red line through the gears for the first 5 to 10 miles. I do remember reading all the new nsx engines are Dyno broken in before installed into the car. I do find it illogical to put an ICE together and not go ahead and broken it in on a dyno consider the amount of time to put it all together in a car only to find it doesn’t fire or cylinder has less pressure.
There was 'much debate about glaze busting' back in the day, but it seems to have just disappeared for some reason (or no reason) and is never heard of now. Was it maybe a manufacturing capability thing that is no longer needed with newer techniques or machine tolerance?
I do not recall it ever being settled, just no longer being relevant
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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My understanding new engines are done in much better precision’s and cylinder coatings are also different from the old days. Production bike at least are fired up at the end of the assembly line and run through specific procedures thus this is not really needed now. My point is still that I don’t see how a race engine would not be fired up before it’s out in a race car.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Zynerji wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:47 pm
diffuser wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:51 am
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:49 pm
I would expect that the reliability requirements would make pre-testing on a dyno (for leaks if nothing else) even MORE mandatory.

I refuse to believe that any engine run in F1 was not broken in properly on a dyno load cell. That single act of Quality Control seems almost simplistic in understanding.
Ok, we don't have to agree.
For curiosity sake, can we poll the audience?

I'm sure there is someone here that works in the business that can tell us about this non-trade secret. I'm happy to admit that I was wrong if we can get some expert level perspective involved with this yes/no question.

Scarbs, maybe?
Me too, happy to admit I'm wrong. My wife does it for me mostly but I can do it on my own too!

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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rogazilla wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:32 pm
My understanding new engines are done in much better precision’s and cylinder coatings are also different from the old days. Production bike at least are fired up at the end of the assembly line and run through specific procedures thus this is not really needed now. My point is still that I don’t see how a race engine would not be fired up before it’s out in a race car.
Fired up is one thing, put on a dyno is completely different.

I'm pretty sure that is all done at the track. I bet they can do alot of testing on the PU just by plugin into the PUs.

I wonder if each PU element can be tested independently.

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NathanOlder
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Wouter wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:00 am

What am I missing here ? Why the double celebration ?
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 3:35 pm
rogazilla wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:09 pm
Not f1 knowledge and the engine building classes I took were old stuff. However ICE are all fired up and usually revved to seal and seat the rings. Back in the days when I received my bikes from dealership I would ride it to red line through the gears for the first 5 to 10 miles. I do remember reading all the new nsx engines are Dyno broken in before installed into the car. I do find it illogical to put an ICE together and not go ahead and broken it in on a dyno consider the amount of time to put it all together in a car only to find it doesn’t fire or cylinder has less pressure.
There was 'much debate about glaze busting' back in the day, but it seems to have just disappeared for some reason (or no reason) and is never heard of now. Was it maybe a manufacturing capability thing that is no longer needed with newer techniques or machine tolerance?
I do not recall it ever being settled, just no longer being relevant
Breaking in engines is done in the first 40km. In those ~40km under load, the rings will mate to the cylinder walls. Recent testing has shown that testing on track is the best way to break in an engine, but if that's not available the dyno is fine as well. Reason being that the track will put the rings under every type of load imaginable, not just under power, but under braking as well.
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:25 pm
Wouter wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:00 am

What am I missing here ? Why the double celebration ?
They're watching the mini sectors, and they saw Verstappen gain under braking by the hotel/turn 17.
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:35 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:25 pm
Wouter wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 11:00 am

What am I missing here ? Why the double celebration ?
They're watching the mini sectors, and they saw Verstappen gain under braking by the hotel/turn 17.
So after being slower than Hamilton at the end of the 2nd sector, they celebrate 1 purple mini sector in sector 3 ? While Bottas had just hit 4 purple mini sectors in the same sector. Really ?
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:49 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:35 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:25 pm


What am I missing here ? Why the double celebration ?
They're watching the mini sectors, and they saw Verstappen gain under braking by the hotel/turn 17.
So after being slower than Hamilton at the end of the 2nd sector, they celebrate 1 purple mini sector in sector 3 ? While Bottas had just hit 4 purple mini sectors in the same sector. Really ?
Yeah, they can see what's happening closer than you can, in a lot more detail.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:35 pm

Yeah, they can see what's happening closer than you can, in a lot more detail.
I'm pretty sure your wrong on this one. I can see the mini sectors too. The first celebration is Max crossing the line and going fastest, the second celebration is when the cars behind him finish and it confirms pole.
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:00 am
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 11:35 pm

Yeah, they can see what's happening closer than you can, in a lot more detail.
I'm pretty sure your wrong on this one. I can see the mini sectors too. The first celebration is Max crossing the line and going fastest, the second celebration is when the cars behind him finish and it confirms pole.
I thought he was the last one to cross the line out of those 3. I really like that video as well because it shows the difference in deployment strategies. Verstappen used more deployment in sector 1, less in sector 2, and Bottas had just a little bit that he didn't use at the start, but Verstappen got out of the last corner just that little bit better.
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