[ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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the EDGE
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Re: [ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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diffuser wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:26 am

I've said before Pat Fry, who's now gone, deserves more credit there.
What exactly do you think he did in the 10 months that he spent there?

TDs do not design cars, this is the job of many individuals. TDs role is that of a senior manager who build teams & oversees their operation & takes long term strategic decisions. That takes more than the few months he would have had before McLaren committed its self the the final build of the Mcl 34.

The car development was well underway by the time he took up his role and the car probably would have been the same with or without him

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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the EDGE wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:34 pm
diffuser wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 3:26 am

I've said before Pat Fry, who's now gone, deserves more credit there.
What exactly do you think he did in the 10 months that he spent there?

TDs do not design cars, this is the job of many individuals. TDs role is that of a senior manager who build teams & oversees their operation & takes long term strategic decisions. That takes more than the few months he would have had before McLaren committed its self the the final build of the Mcl 34.

The car development was well underway by the time he took up his role and the car probably would have been the same with or without him
Remember it wasn't, they were stuck trying to figure out what was wrong wíth the 2018 car. They figured it (without him likely) but he immediately went to work on the 2019 car when he came in (after the summer break). So yeah, I think the 2019 was lead by him.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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diffuser wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:19 pm

Remember it wasn't, they were stuck trying to figure out what was wrong wíth the 2018 car. They figured it (without him likely) but he immediately went to work on the 2019 car when he came in (after the summer break). So yeah, I think the 2019 was lead by him.
The fundamental problem with the ‘33 chassis was the distance between the front wheels and the side pods was too short meaning they didn’t have the room others had to control the tyre wake, they did figure this out without the help of Fry, and they corrected that on the 34 irrespective of whether he was there or not. There is simply no way one person can come on board and immediately change the fortunes of a team in a few months. Not even Newey himself could achieve that.

His role was to to fill a gap in the management of the departments, a man who could track & help coordinate what was going on with the various design & manufacturing departments. I’m not saying he didn’t do a good job, I’m just saying he didn’t design the Mcl 34

I mean, paddy low didn’t design the FW42, he just made bad decisions & and failed to control production. Unfortunately for him, he didn’t do a good job & neither did the design team

Fortunately for Fry his design team did a good job and fry clearly managed to co-ordinate everything well so it all came together

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Re: [ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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Don't forget, alot of the engineering management was leg go during that summer. So there was a void of management.

I'm not saying Fry was the 2nd coming, just that he had alot more impact on that years car than we've gotten from Seidl. I mean his main impact from Seidler should be on pit stops. They've gotten better but they're still far from challenging the best.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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diffuser wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:58 pm
Don't forget, alot of the engineering management was leg go during that summer. So there was a void of management.

I'm not saying Fry was the 2nd coming, just that he had alot more impact on that years car than we've gotten from Seidl. I mean his main impact from Seidler should be on pit stops. They've gotten better but they're still far from challenging the best.
Fry is an ace and a boon to Alpine F1 IMO. McLaren's loss, but they are committed to Key who is also an excellent technical director.
Last edited by JordanMugen on Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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the EDGE wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:22 pm
It’s all very well having the right people, but even the right people need the right resources. Williams infrastructure is very dated and that will require huge investment
Why not just use the Mercedes wind tunnel like Aston Martin, or like HAAS with Ferrari? :)

By this model, costs can be reduced dramatically compared to a full constructor. =D>

Williams could also consider pairing with Alpine F1, and taking an Alpine customer package -- using the Alpine wind tunnel, and taking the Renault power unit, Alpine gearbox and Alpine suspension.

HAAS is a really a great blueprint on how you can run an F1 team without spending a fortune on facilites.

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NathanOlder
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Re: [ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:23 pm
the EDGE wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:22 pm
It’s all very well having the right people, but even the right people need the right resources. Williams infrastructure is very dated and that will require huge investment
Why not just use the Mercedes wind tunnel like Aston Martin, or like HAAS with Ferrari? :)

By this model, costs can be reduced dramatically compared to a full constructor. =D>

Williams could also consider pairing with Alpine F1, and taking an Alpine customer package -- using the Alpine wind tunnel, and taking the Renault power unit, Alpine gearbox and Alpine suspension.

HAAS is a really a great blueprint on how you can run an F1 team without spending a fortune on facilites.
Yeah agreed, Williams should now take the opportunity to partner up with Renault.
A good history,
Cheaper in long run,
Easy upgrades to begin with,
Future young drivers with potential for discount on parts.

Plus if your the number 1 customer and the big team pulls the plug, you have a good chance to start a partnership like Williams Renault did before.
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Re: [ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:23 pm
the EDGE wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:22 pm
It’s all very well having the right people, but even the right people need the right resources. Williams infrastructure is very dated and that will require huge investment
Why not just use the Mercedes wind tunnel like Aston Martin, or like HAAS with Ferrari? :)

By this model, costs can be reduced dramatically compared to a full constructor. =D>

Williams could also consider pairing with Alpine F1, and taking an Alpine customer package -- using the Alpine wind tunnel, and taking the Renault power unit, Alpine gearbox and Alpine suspension.

HAAS is a really a great blueprint on how you can run an F1 team without spending a fortune on facilites.
But were not just talking wind-tunnel, there's CFD, simulation & Production to consider too & none of those come cheap, and that's just Aero, what about the mechanical side of things too?

Williams have already stated they don't want to be a customer team however that's always a possibility, but when has a B-team ever been successful?

Haas is not a good example of anything. finished 9th 2 years on the trot... in fact the only time they ever really did better was because their competition did so badly and that's not going to happen again because the likes of RP, McLaren, Renault & AT have upped the bar of the midfield significantly

Its obviously yet to be seen how the NEW Ferrari 'customer' unit based at Maranello will work, but 1 difference of being a customer team to Ferrari and a customer team to Renault would differ is that you can count on Ferrari being around for ever, how many times have Renault quit the sport?

I wish Williams very well indeed, I'd love to see them fighting at the front again, & perhaps the '22 reg's will allow that all their own. Its great they have good people on-board & I'm sure this well help them attract other new names too BUT success will not come cheaply, not when their competition is all so strong like it is at the moment

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Re: [ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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the EDGE wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:22 pm
Mansell89 wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:45 pm
Some signs of ambition from Williams with the Capito appointment. Wouldn’t it be wonderful to bring Porsche into this sport via Capito.

Anyway, point being some solid heads beginning to appear in the right places- would be great to see Williams establish themselves as a real competitive force again.
It’s all very well having the right people, but even the right people need the right resources. Williams infrastructure is very dated and that will require huge investment on top of the cost of competing to the budget cap as capital expenditure is not included

This will take deep pockets or wealthy sponsors & time, McLaren have showed it’s possible to rebuild but look how long it took them to get where they are and they still have a long way to go still
Where did you get the info that Williams infrastructure is very dated? Correct me if I am wrong but they have 2 state of the art wind tunnels, respectable simulator and well equiped workshop. Their poor performance in the last 3 years was the result of disastrous development concept of FW41 and FW42 cars (this year they catched up quite a bit actually) and not because of poor equipment. It is not that their facilities turned from good to very dated in 3 years. I am sure that they need to invest more money into it but I wouldn't say that infrastructure is holding them back.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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Lynx wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 5:31 pm
the EDGE wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 1:22 pm
Mansell89 wrote:
Sun Jan 03, 2021 12:45 pm
Some signs of ambition from Williams with the Capito appointment. Wouldn’t it be wonderful to bring Porsche into this sport via Capito.

Anyway, point being some solid heads beginning to appear in the right places- would be great to see Williams establish themselves as a real competitive force again.
It’s all very well having the right people, but even the right people need the right resources. Williams infrastructure is very dated and that will require huge investment on top of the cost of competing to the budget cap as capital expenditure is not included

This will take deep pockets or wealthy sponsors & time, McLaren have showed it’s possible to rebuild but look how long it took them to get where they are and they still have a long way to go still
Where did you get the info that Williams infrastructure is very dated? Correct me if I am wrong but they have 2 state of the art wind tunnels, respectable simulator and well equiped workshop. Their poor performance in the last 3 years was the result of disastrous development concept of FW41 and FW42 cars (this year they catched up quite a bit actually) and not because of poor equipment. It is not that their facilities turned from good to very dated in 3 years. I am sure that they need to invest more money into it but I wouldn't say that infrastructure is holding them back.
Just speculation really, they certainly have been strapped for cash recently and technology does not stand still. They have been selling assets, nearly went bankrupt and had to sell them team and more tellingly producing way-underdeveloped cars for sometime

I am aware they have 2 first class wind tunnels, not sure about the rest of the facilities however

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Re: [ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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JordanMugen
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Re: [ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:23 pm
Why not just use the Mercedes wind tunnel like Aston Martin, or like HAAS with Ferrari? :)
Mercedes gearbox deal is done: https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/01/06/wi ... des-parts/

It doesn't say whether Williams will use Mercedes suspension in 2022 (if that is allowed in 2022, I haven't checked) but that would be a good idea too.

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NathanOlder
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Re: [ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:17 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:23 pm
Why not just use the Mercedes wind tunnel like Aston Martin, or like HAAS with Ferrari? :)
Mercedes gearbox deal is done: https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/01/06/wi ... des-parts/

It doesn't say whether Williams will use Mercedes suspension in 2022 (if that is allowed in 2022, I haven't checked) but that would be a good idea too.
If only they did this deal a few years ago, George really could have dragged them up the grid. Wonder how strong their driver lineup will be next year.
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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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NathanOlder wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:13 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:17 am
JordanMugen wrote:
Mon Jan 04, 2021 1:23 pm
Why not just use the Mercedes wind tunnel like Aston Martin, or like HAAS with Ferrari? :)
Mercedes gearbox deal is done: https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/01/06/wi ... des-parts/

It doesn't say whether Williams will use Mercedes suspension in 2022 (if that is allowed in 2022, I haven't checked) but that would be a good idea too.
If only they did this deal a few years ago, George really could have dragged them up the grid. Wonder how strong their driver lineup will be next year.
You know, I never had Williams in the mix for 2021 midfield. Think I need to reconsider that.

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Re: [ 2020 ] Williams F1 Team - Mercedes

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diffuser wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 2:39 am


You know, I never had Williams in the mix for 2021 midfield. Think I need to reconsider that.
I assume you mean 2022?

As that is when they will start to use Mercedes Gearbox & hydraulics

Nothing changes for next year