2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Pyrone89
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 2:47 pm
WaikeCU wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:18 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:10 pm


Absolutely none! (clarity, not the amount they've used)
If none tokens used, I'd say they'll use all tokens after the Summer stop to unveil 'the W12' for the rest of the season.

Imagine "Pre-season testing is done" communication after the Hungarian GP :lol:
Although I think any token spend had to be announced/on the car by the first race, so they have missed their opportunity unless it really is something minor or under the skin and already on there. It's hard to understand all the drama they helped create around it with certain bold and quizzical statements, but then with absolutely nothing to follow up with since.

I don't suppose we'll know until at least the end of the season, now.
Why are you so surprised? Smoke and mirrors is part of the game.
True GOATs don’t need the help of superior material to win.

Tom Brady, Usain Bolt are true GOATs.

zibby43
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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France debrief:


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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Pyrone89 wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:45 pm
I am reading all these journalists and Mercedes' fans predicting gloom and all, even talking about 'the final blow'.

What are those people on? Everyone that has followed F1 could clearly see the Mercedes had the better race pace in France, and they were beaten (with only 1 and a half lap) on strategy by a very good team with the best driver at the moment (doing stuff that Hamilton used to do in his best races).

Trust me, once the strategy department gets things sorted a driver in a W12 will be on the top step again.
The Pirelli and no refuelling eras got us talking about race a lot but race pace has never meant much come to think of it in (post 2000). Track position is king and will always be for the majority of tracks.

I mean look how many times drivers / cars with superior "race pace" end up losing anyway. Race pace was just a saying for the fastest loser because passing at the sharp end is extremely difficult.

Give me raw speed before race pace.
. 100!!. CEN . TUR.. ION. 100!!..

aMessageToCharlie
aMessageToCharlie
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:12 am
Pyrone89 wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:45 pm
I am reading all these journalists and Mercedes' fans predicting gloom and all, even talking about 'the final blow'.

What are those people on? Everyone that has followed F1 could clearly see the Mercedes had the better race pace in France, and they were beaten (with only 1 and a half lap) on strategy by a very good team with the best driver at the moment (doing stuff that Hamilton used to do in his best races).

Trust me, once the strategy department gets things sorted a driver in a W12 will be on the top step again.
The Pirelli and no refuelling eras got us talking about race a lot but race pace has never meant much come to think of it in (post 2000). Track position is king and will always be for the majority of tracks.

I mean look how many times drivers / cars with superior "race pace" end up losing anyway. Race pace was just a saying for the fastest loser because passing at the sharp end is extremely difficult.

Give me raw speed before race pace.
Interesting. In the past I kept reading on here that Hamilton was so smart, setting his car up for race pace, rather than all out qualy speed every time he got beaten in qualy.

zibby43
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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I dunno. Ferrari’s quali pace didn’t amount to much in the latter half of 2019.

I’d rather have the fastest car on Sunday and be quick enough on Saturday to be within striking distance.

b2bL44
b2bL44
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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When was the last time Mercedes had a car that could follow another car in its gearbox lap after lap after lap like we've seen this season? I think this is the first time in the turbo-hybrid era. The W12 is a beast in race pace, the weakness remains in balance and getting the front tyres up to temp.

As Toto pointed out again last week in France, understanding of the tyres is the priority for the 2021 season. That's where Mercedes will gain pace this season.

zibby43
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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b2bL44 wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:33 am
When was the last time Mercedes had a car that could follow another car in its gearbox lap after lap after lap like we've seen this season? I think this is the first time in the turbo-hybrid era. The W12 is a beast in race pace, the weakness remains in balance and getting the front tyres up to temp.

As Toto pointed out again last week in France, understanding of the tyres is the priority for the 2021 season. That's where Mercedes will gain pace this season.
Very good point about the W12’s ability to follow this year. That display by Hamilton in France after the pit stop was very impressive.

Only thing I can think of that was remotely similar was Hamilton on LEC in Monza, but Monza is a unique animal.

I think Ferrari have out-qualified McLaren in every race this year, yet McLaren is ahead in the WCC because they have a better race car and grasp on the tires, which, like you said, are a key to pace this season.

basti313
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:12 am
Pyrone89 wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:45 pm
I am reading all these journalists and Mercedes' fans predicting gloom and all, even talking about 'the final blow'.

What are those people on? Everyone that has followed F1 could clearly see the Mercedes had the better race pace in France, and they were beaten (with only 1 and a half lap) on strategy by a very good team with the best driver at the moment (doing stuff that Hamilton used to do in his best races).

Trust me, once the strategy department gets things sorted a driver in a W12 will be on the top step again.
The Pirelli and no refuelling eras got us talking about race a lot but race pace has never meant much come to think of it in (post 2000). Track position is king and will always be for the majority of tracks.

I mean look how many times drivers / cars with superior "race pace" end up losing anyway. Race pace was just a saying for the fastest loser because passing at the sharp end is extremely difficult.

Give me raw speed before race pace.
I think we saw the opposite on Sunday...simple strategy error with misinterpreting the undercut and getting race pace vs. track position wrong. They also misjudged the chance to overtake and run too long too close. Especially with Bot that was nonsense to keep him at 2sec.

Ves gave up track position and won the race like this. And I think there is even another misunderstanding of this race. While we had a lot of overtakes, it was not at all easy to overtake. Once cars had a similarly old tire, there was barely to no overtaking as usual. Once there was a tire offset of ~10 laps overtaking was very possible because of the huge understeer they had due to older tires which was similar to the understeer due to dirty air.

Coming back to the topic here:
The tire usage of the Merc was great given that they followed half a stint in a half second distance. Furthermore the Honda is still not on the reliability they need to run through the season without blown engines. So as long as Ves does not have a 25 points buffer I do not see him in prime position for WDC.

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Pyrone89
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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basti313 wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 8:57 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:12 am
Pyrone89 wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:45 pm
I am reading all these journalists and Mercedes' fans predicting gloom and all, even talking about 'the final blow'.

What are those people on? Everyone that has followed F1 could clearly see the Mercedes had the better race pace in France, and they were beaten (with only 1 and a half lap) on strategy by a very good team with the best driver at the moment (doing stuff that Hamilton used to do in his best races).

Trust me, once the strategy department gets things sorted a driver in a W12 will be on the top step again.
The Pirelli and no refuelling eras got us talking about race a lot but race pace has never meant much come to think of it in (post 2000). Track position is king and will always be for the majority of tracks.

I mean look how many times drivers / cars with superior "race pace" end up losing anyway. Race pace was just a saying for the fastest loser because passing at the sharp end is extremely difficult.

Give me raw speed before race pace.
I think we saw the opposite on Sunday...simple strategy error with misinterpreting the undercut and getting race pace vs. track position wrong. They also misjudged the chance to overtake and run too long too close. Especially with Bot that was nonsense to keep him at 2sec.

Ves gave up track position and won the race like this. And I think there is even another misunderstanding of this race. While we had a lot of overtakes, it was not at all easy to overtake. Once cars had a similarly old tire, there was barely to no overtaking as usual. Once there was a tire offset of ~10 laps overtaking was very possible because of the huge understeer they had due to older tires which was similar to the understeer due to dirty air.

Coming back to the topic here:
The tire usage of the Merc was great given that they followed half a stint in a half second distance. Furthermore the Honda is still not on the reliability they need to run through the season without blown engines. So as long as Ves does not have a 25 points buffer I do not see him in prime position for WDC.
True, still think Hamilton will win the WDC as long as the W12 is such a beast in the race. Sooner or later the Merc strategy department will be on it again and VER will be defenseless no matter how good he drives as the W12 simply has less tyre degradation (which hurts them in tyre warm-up in quali, but massively helps them in the race). Literally got my money on Hamilton.

Remember car is still king. There are enough seasons in F1 were the best driver did not win the WDC simply due to this. See Alonso 2012 or Hamilton 2016 for example.
True GOATs don’t need the help of superior material to win.

Tom Brady, Usain Bolt are true GOATs.

HungarianRacer
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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b2bL44 wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 7:33 am
When was the last time Mercedes had a car that could follow another car in its gearbox lap after lap after lap like we've seen this season? I think this is the first time in the turbo-hybrid era. The W12 is a beast in race pace, the weakness remains in balance and getting the front tyres up to temp.

As Toto pointed out again last week in France, understanding of the tyres is the priority for the 2021 season. That's where Mercedes will gain pace this season.
Are people really just noticing this now? (isn't this a conversation for the Mercedes W12 thread though?... Not my call, not snitching)

The introduction of the W10 (my favourite hybrid era Mercedes) for the 2019 aero rules overhaul represented a massive change in their prototype's so-called "DNA", their car was no longer a low drag, super efficient, straight line optimized missile (this attribute was often cited as proof that they have an overpowered engine in a mediocre chassis, since a car concept's merits seem to be only judged on cornering Gs and minimum speeds ever since the early 2010's Red Bull era - as if aero drag was always directly proportional to downforce and cornering performance and was a compromise always worth mounting on the car, but I digress -), well, to say that the W10 changed that would be quiet the understatement, it was now one of the draggiest cars on the field, but also - as I'm sure some of you still remember - an absolute beast in low speed corners, and in terms of minimum cornering speeds in any type of bend in general. Kind on it's tyres, too.

And funnily enough, the aero rule change's main purpose (making it easier to follow other cars and reducing aero sensitivity in general) also seem to have worked best for Mercedes, since, I not only recall instances where Lewis could terrorize the gearboxes of the Ferraris and Max Verstappen's Red Bull like no one else in that season and in all following years since, but judging from the amount of complaints from each team, I'd say the relative crosswind sensitivity of the Silver Arrows has also been significantly reduced since (not sure if it still holds true with the cut-back floors though)...

mclaren_mircea
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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As a loyal supporter of the team and Ham Im so sad that they literally did not bring an upgrade package from testing. You cant do that. Not to your star driver than is chasing his 8 title. Red Bull was upgraded severel races in a row and on the Mercedes nothing. Just nothing. Just this story with gains by set-up and tyres. Which is annoying.

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WaikeCU
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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I think Merc had this issue of switching on tires for some time ever since the cars went onto those wider Pirelli tires since 2017. The DAS system last season was probably their best way of finding a way to get them in the window before a flyer/race starts/restarts.
Now the DAS has been banned, they basically didn't get any other solution, since the car is basically the same as the one of last season. On certain tracks like Monaco and Baku we've seen the Mercs do 2 outlaps before the flyer to get the tires more or less in the window.

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Morteza
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Last edited by Morteza on Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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HungarianRacer
HungarianRacer
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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WaikeCU wrote:
Thu Jun 24, 2021 2:05 pm
I think Merc had this issue of switching on tires for some time ever since the cars went onto those wider Pirelli tires since 2017. The DAS system last season was probably their best way of finding a way to get them in the window before a flyer/race starts/restarts.
Now the DAS has been banned, they basically didn't get any other solution, since the car is basically the same as the one of last season. On certain tracks like Monaco and Baku we've seen the Mercs do 2 outlaps before the flyer to get the tires more or less in the window.
One does not simply put a car on pole by almost half a second in Monaco (2019) by being poor at putting heat into the tyres... In 2017 Bottas was also just hundredths off pole with the limousine-length, severely overweight W08... As a matter of fact, they were almost always on the other end of the tyre warm up spectrum in the first two years of the wide hybrid cars, I would say.

You need not to forget that, for this season, everyone was basically told "we've vandalized your floor, but you have to use last year's chassis... oh, the tyres are also all-new, good luck!"

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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This is new ground to Merc. They are used to having 'plan A' run away from everyone else and stay at the front, it is a whole new game now. It is along while since they had a real fight for both cars it will take a while to adjust
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