2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:10 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:28 pm
Lewis Hamilton has decided not to back out of on-track battles when he believes he has a right to the corner, Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff says.

Wolff said it followed discussions over the aggressive approach to racing of title rival Max Verstappen of Red Bull.

"The change in approach is that Lewis pretty much decided not to bail out any more when he thinks the corner is his," Wolff said.

"Now it needs two to understand when a collision can be avoided."

(From the BBC)
I'm with him on that. The issue comes as they get closer to the end of the season. If, for example, Max is ahead on points going in to the last race and Hamilton needs to win for the title, Max is likely to just chuck it up the inside knowing that he either wins by being ahead on track or by taking Hamilton out.
I'd imagine then, the FIA might look at 'Schumacher rules' and apply an exceptional punishment if it seems obvious there was intent to collide, or no intent not to, given the stakes. After Monza, I think Verstappen is going to have to be very careful about doing that, as his actions will be very much under the microscope. They are not going to want a championship decided in that fashion again.

selvam_e2002
selvam_e2002
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:22 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:10 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 1:28 pm
Lewis Hamilton has decided not to back out of on-track battles when he believes he has a right to the corner, Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff says.

Wolff said it followed discussions over the aggressive approach to racing of title rival Max Verstappen of Red Bull.

"The change in approach is that Lewis pretty much decided not to bail out any more when he thinks the corner is his," Wolff said.

"Now it needs two to understand when a collision can be avoided."

(From the BBC)
I'm with him on that. The issue comes as they get closer to the end of the season. If, for example, Max is ahead on points going in to the last race and Hamilton needs to win for the title, Max is likely to just chuck it up the inside knowing that he either wins by being ahead on track or by taking Hamilton out.
I'd imagine then, the FIA might look at 'Schumacher rules' and apply an exceptional punishment if it seems obvious there was intent to collide, or no intent not to, given the stakes. After Monza, I think Verstappen is going to have to be very careful about doing that, as his actions will be very much under the microscope. They are not going to want a championship decided in that fashion again.
I 100% doubt Max will learn from it. If he did then he would not crashed with Hamilton in last race.

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Javert
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Did the set-up of Mercedes changes significantly during the last three races? E.g. rake or something else

Bottas seems to drive it more confidently

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El Scorchio
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Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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selvam_e2002 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:53 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:22 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:10 pm

I'm with him on that. The issue comes as they get closer to the end of the season. If, for example, Max is ahead on points going in to the last race and Hamilton needs to win for the title, Max is likely to just chuck it up the inside knowing that he either wins by being ahead on track or by taking Hamilton out.
I'd imagine then, the FIA might look at 'Schumacher rules' and apply an exceptional punishment if it seems obvious there was intent to collide, or no intent not to, given the stakes. After Monza, I think Verstappen is going to have to be very careful about doing that, as his actions will be very much under the microscope. They are not going to want a championship decided in that fashion again.
I 100% doubt Max will learn from it. If he did then he would not crashed with Hamilton in last race.
I don't know if he'll change his style or not. I'd say probably not, but he might find it's taken out of his hands and the powers that be intervene if there are additional similar incidents. To me, it's poor sportsmanship to willingly collide rather than back out of a lost corner. If he expects other drivers to do that for him when he has the high ground, then he should play by his own rules and cede when he doesn't.

FWIW, I believe there's no way he would have gone for that move, or not backed out of it if it was any other driver. It was calculated, as neither of them finishing was a better result than him losing any points which he was on course to do.

Dee
Dee
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:14 pm
selvam_e2002 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:53 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:22 pm


I'd imagine then, the FIA might look at 'Schumacher rules' and apply an exceptional punishment if it seems obvious there was intent to collide, or no intent not to, given the stakes. After Monza, I think Verstappen is going to have to be very careful about doing that, as his actions will be very much under the microscope. They are not going to want a championship decided in that fashion again.
I 100% doubt Max will learn from it. If he did then he would not crashed with Hamilton in last race.
I don't know if he'll change his style or not. I'd say probably not, but he might find it's taken out of his hands and the powers that be intervene if there are additional similar incidents. To me, it's poor sportsmanship to willingly collide rather than back out of a lost corner. If he expects other drivers to do that for him when he has the high ground, then he should play by his own rules and cede when he doesn't.

FWIW, I believe there's no way he would have gone for that move, or not backed out of it if it was any other driver. It was calculated, as neither of them finishing was a better result than him losing any points which he was on course to do.
You can believe what you want to believe, Fact is Lewis gave him enough space to go for an overtake, then Lewis closed the door after Max was passed the runoff and it put him up on to the curves which put them both out. Max did not act differently in that overtake vs others he has done in that corner since he started F1, as can be seen on Palmers analysis. He had the space, he went for it. He got the penalty because he was the one overtaking and there was a crash.

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214270
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Dee wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:42 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:14 pm
selvam_e2002 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:53 pm


I 100% doubt Max will learn from it. If he did then he would not crashed with Hamilton in last race.
I don't know if he'll change his style or not. I'd say probably not, but he might find it's taken out of his hands and the powers that be intervene if there are additional similar incidents. To me, it's poor sportsmanship to willingly collide rather than back out of a lost corner. If he expects other drivers to do that for him when he has the high ground, then he should play by his own rules and cede when he doesn't.

FWIW, I believe there's no way he would have gone for that move, or not backed out of it if it was any other driver. It was calculated, as neither of them finishing was a better result than him losing any points which he was on course to do.
You can believe what you want to believe, Fact is Lewis gave him enough space to go for an overtake, then Lewis closed the door after Max was passed the runoff and it put him up on to the curves which put them both out. Max did not act differently in that overtake vs others he has done in that corner since he started F1, as can be seen on Palmers analysis. He had the space, he went for it. He got the penalty because he was the one overtaking and there was a crash.
Palmer’s analysis shows HAM gave a similar amount of room LEC gave GIO on the opening lap. The difference is VER came in hotter, went wider as a result and couldn’t rotate his car sufficiently for the 2nd part of the chicane in order to avoid the worst of the curbs.

All of this doesn’t even address the meat of the stewards report being VER was too far back into the corner and had not ‘established’ an overtake on approach.
Team ANTI-HYPE. Prove it, then I’ll anoint you.

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Dee wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:42 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:14 pm
selvam_e2002 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 2:53 pm


I 100% doubt Max will learn from it. If he did then he would not crashed with Hamilton in last race.
I don't know if he'll change his style or not. I'd say probably not, but he might find it's taken out of his hands and the powers that be intervene if there are additional similar incidents. To me, it's poor sportsmanship to willingly collide rather than back out of a lost corner. If he expects other drivers to do that for him when he has the high ground, then he should play by his own rules and cede when he doesn't.

FWIW, I believe there's no way he would have gone for that move, or not backed out of it if it was any other driver. It was calculated, as neither of them finishing was a better result than him losing any points which he was on course to do.
You can believe what you want to believe, Fact is Lewis gave him enough space to go for an overtake, then Lewis closed the door after Max was passed the runoff and it put him up on to the curves which put them both out. Max did not act differently in that overtake vs others he has done in that corner since he started F1, as can be seen on Palmers analysis. He had the space, he went for it. He got the penalty because he was the one overtaking and there was a crash.
Your 'fact' has absolutely no more weight than my stated belief. It isn't fact at all, it's just your opinion.

Dee
Dee
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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214270 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:51 pm
Dee wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:42 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:14 pm


I don't know if he'll change his style or not. I'd say probably not, but he might find it's taken out of his hands and the powers that be intervene if there are additional similar incidents. To me, it's poor sportsmanship to willingly collide rather than back out of a lost corner. If he expects other drivers to do that for him when he has the high ground, then he should play by his own rules and cede when he doesn't.

FWIW, I believe there's no way he would have gone for that move, or not backed out of it if it was any other driver. It was calculated, as neither of them finishing was a better result than him losing any points which he was on course to do.
You can believe what you want to believe, Fact is Lewis gave him enough space to go for an overtake, then Lewis closed the door after Max was passed the runoff and it put him up on to the curves which put them both out. Max did not act differently in that overtake vs others he has done in that corner since he started F1, as can be seen on Palmers analysis. He had the space, he went for it. He got the penalty because he was the one overtaking and there was a crash.
Palmer’s analysis shows HAM gave a similar amount of room LEC gave GIO on the opening lap. The difference is VER came in hotter, went wider as a result and couldn’t rotate his car sufficiently for the 2nd part of the chicane in order to avoid the worst of the curbs.

All of this doesn’t even address the meat of the stewards report being VER was too far back into the corner and had not ‘established’ an overtake on approach.
Max did not go wider than GIO, GIO had less space then Verstappen. If the stewards want to play with words (never heard of "had not established an overtake on approach" before when max had more space than GIO for the overtake, then so be it. If the higher speed caused less rotation to avoid the curbs, then that's what happened. But it wasn't intentional contact or an overtake that was not on. More and more a racing incident where the curbs were the defining factor and nothing that either driver did.

selvam_e2002
selvam_e2002
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Dee wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:06 pm
214270 wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:51 pm
Dee wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 3:42 pm


You can believe what you want to believe, Fact is Lewis gave him enough space to go for an overtake, then Lewis closed the door after Max was passed the runoff and it put him up on to the curves which put them both out. Max did not act differently in that overtake vs others he has done in that corner since he started F1, as can be seen on Palmers analysis. He had the space, he went for it. He got the penalty because he was the one overtaking and there was a crash.
Palmer’s analysis shows HAM gave a similar amount of room LEC gave GIO on the opening lap. The difference is VER came in hotter, went wider as a result and couldn’t rotate his car sufficiently for the 2nd part of the chicane in order to avoid the worst of the curbs.

All of this doesn’t even address the meat of the stewards report being VER was too far back into the corner and had not ‘established’ an overtake on approach.
Max did not go wider than GIO, GIO had less space then Verstappen. If the stewards want to play with words (never heard of "had not established an overtake on approach" before when max had more space than GIO for the overtake, then so be it. If the higher speed caused less rotation to avoid the curbs, then that's what happened. But it wasn't intentional contact or an overtake that was not on. More and more a racing incident where the curbs were the defining factor and nothing that either driver did.
If there is no space to go and you are outside to over take then it is your (max) responsibility not to crash.

Hamilton did calculated move as he did it in Silverstone i.e. dummy move to left and overtook Max in right.

Max is not learning how to read other drivers move in advance so that he can plan for it.

Example: Hamilton vs Alsonso hot fight in 2007 but no crash in track. They know each other move very well.

In my point of view, Max decided, if I am not winning you also attitude.

You will see same in Sochi... may be with Lecrec.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Lewis might actually want to start 2nd here and just have Bottas pull across to give him a tow on lap 1.
Felipe Baby!

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F1Krof
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Mercedes can literally write a book on "How NOT to Win a Championship?".

So many screw-ups, missed chances on both pole and victories this season!

Complacency caught up with them I guess. Too bad!
Wroom wroom

selvam_e2002
selvam_e2002
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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yup. both the side mistake. It seems either LH prime over or they already write off this season.

matt_b
matt_b
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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F1Krof wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 6:19 pm
Mercedes can literally write a book on "How NOT to Win a Championship?".

So many screw-ups, missed chances on both pole and victories this season!

Complacency caught up with them I guess. Too bad!
If you're on pole on intermediate tyres and the only tyre that can beat it is a soft tyre you simply change to a soft tyre, simple logic but James and the strategy team said nah lets do another lap on the intermediates and leave an open goal for others #-o

zibby43
zibby43
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Merc may take PU penalties with both drivers.


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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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zibby43 wrote:
Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:04 pm
Merc may take PU penalties with both drivers.

https://twitter.com/adamcooperf1/status ... 49929?s=21
The only thing that matters is getting more points than Max, even if its not a win.
If they think it is going to need a replacement, and they also think they are quicker than Max, it is the sensible thing to do.

Waiting until to another track leaves the door open for Max to go +25, or even if Ham comes back into the points, its the first few places that the worthwhile points are
I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it-
Voltaire, or several other claimants.