2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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basti313
basti313
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:48 pm
dans79 wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:12 pm
Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 2:38 pm
why would they. Lewis built a 3 lap advantage in his first stint and a 5 lap in his second (without loosing much time). With them knowing the white tire would be an advantage I would also take that over track position. f you go first who knows how many laps Verstappen still could have gone on his yellows. Then a white and finishing on yellows would likely also have made Hamilton very vulnerable. I really thought Hamilton would win it after the second pit stop. Indeed already when he closed the 6 seconds down so early in the first white stint I thought the race was over.
The problem is that even in Austin you need a significant time delta to pass. I think 1.2 seconds was quoted yesterday. Everyone says Austin is easy to overtake at, but it isn't in an F1 car. The car in front either needs to make a mistake or have some serious tire degradation.
Yeah, that straight after turn 11 was where it needed to happen for Merc. Then you have DRS and that last part where the car crouches down it becomes really fast. There Perhaps a lesser delta would have sufficed. But the RedBull had the better traction out of 11. That is possibly the difference between high rake/low rake and not having the springs compromised for the rear crouching as much as Mercedes (if that even requires a compromise, which is to be expected but does it?).
??? In the Q comparison the traction at turn 11 is 100% similar. Opposite, in his last run Ham slightly missed the apex more than Ves and still did not lose time there.
In the race the harm was done before turn 11.
I do not think there was any chance to kill the bull after T11, saving tires in S1 and getting close with good tires in S3 to try it into T1 is the only chance in my point of view. Blockas on Sainz was completely in the diff in T11 and hardly got by, unthinkable against the RedBull.
Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 3:48 pm
But Max was very early as it stands with pitstop one. Could/should Mercedes have preempted that?
I do not think so. The first stop was super early and Merc would have needed to stop from P1 into traffic (Lec). They also did not know how fast Ver is or if Per is on a one stop (well slower). I do not see it as realistic.
At the second stop Per was in the window.There I still do not understand the early stop of Ver, he could have done one or two laps more without danger as Ham was blocked by Per.

aral
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Could you please discuss the race on the race thread. Keep this thread for specific team discussion.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Since Bottas wasn’t cutting through the field his new ICE, maybe they were actually the truth, about his old ones are failing. Makes me wonder how Hamilton’s ICE is doing.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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The actual cylinders and lubrication system is not the issue if ww go by Toto's hints. It's some small auxilliary parts that are critical for engine opperation but unfortunatley you have to break the FIA seals to replace them. So when these parts are about to fail, even if the cylinders are crisp as buscuits you are screwed because you cant fix them withought breaking the seals.

Toto hinted at something relating to the pneumatic system.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Gentlemen. We have five races to win.

Let's talk about the Device.

Why do you think it was most effective at Sochi and Istanbul? Which characteristics of the turns and the straights do you see?

And let's discuss which tracks can we surprise again with our "Device."
... . almost. there . sTiLl.. WE...RisE. ..

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adrianjordan
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:18 pm
The actual cylinders and lubrication system is not the issue if ww go by Toto's hints. It's some small auxilliary parts that are critical for engine opperation but unfortunatley you have to break the FIA seals to replace them. So when these parts are about to fail, even if the cylinders are crisp as buscuits you are screwed because you cant fix them withought breaking the seals.

Toto hinted at something relating to the pneumatic system.
As these are auxiliary parts, I assume they're able to change their location for next season?
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JordanMugen
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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SiLo wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:47 am
The issue is that that flexible wings are banned in the regs, and non-linear suspension travel is not.
Correct, however about five seasons ago, Whiting made a clarification that suspension systems with a primary aerodynamic (rather than kinematics) purpose are not permitted. Suspension systems must be primarily for kinematics and tyre behaviour and not primarily for aerodynamic effect.

Whiting replied to Ferrari that he considered such a device would fall foul of regulation 3.15 (concerning whether a component or system is ‘wholly incidental to the main purpose of the suspension system’ or ‘have been contrived to directly affect the aerodynamic performance of the car’)
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arti ... 7-f1-title

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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adrianjordan wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:50 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:18 pm
The actual cylinders and lubrication system is not the issue if ww go by Toto's hints. It's some small auxilliary parts that are critical for engine opperation but unfortunatley you have to break the FIA seals to replace them. So when these parts are about to fail, even if the cylinders are crisp as buscuits you are screwed because you cant fix them withought breaking the seals.

Toto hinted at something relating to the pneumatic system.
As these are auxiliary parts, I assume they're able to change their location for next season?
Depends on functionality I guess. Mercedes just has to make them more reliable if these are parts that need to be within the valvecover/cylinder head or wherever. Jenny Gow says she heard the problem(s) have been identified and addressed somewhat. I certainly hope so.
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NL_Fer
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:18 pm
The actual cylinders and lubrication system is not the issue if ww go by Toto's hints. It's some small auxilliary parts that are critical for engine opperation but unfortunatley you have to break the FIA seals to replace them. So when these parts are about to fail, even if the cylinders are crisp as buscuits you are screwed because you cant fix them withought breaking the seals.

Toto hinted at something relating to the pneumatic system.
I heard a rumour also about the pneumatic (valvespring?) system losing to much pressure. Than still, how big is the problem with Hamilton’s remaining units. Although he has a fourth 4 ICE’

Strangely i though they had reverted to traditional valvesprings, since the hybrids don’t rev that high anymore.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:50 pm
SiLo wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:47 am
The issue is that that flexible wings are banned in the regs, and non-linear suspension travel is not.
Correct, however about five seasons ago, Whiting made a clarification that suspension systems with a primary aerodynamic (rather than kinematics) purpose are not permitted. Suspension systems must be primarily for kinematics and tyre behaviour and not primarily for aerodynamic effect.

Whiting replied to Ferrari that he considered such a device would fall foul of regulation 3.15 (concerning whether a component or system is ‘wholly incidental to the main purpose of the suspension system’ or ‘have been contrived to directly affect the aerodynamic performance of the car’)
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arti ... 7-f1-title
I think it's still legal, because it's likely only active when the same forces apply to either side of the suspension. If you're only getting the aero benefit of the suspension being non-linear on the straights, it's even harder to argue a case against it. Plus a bunch of other teams are already doing this, so they would probably have support.
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dans79
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:50 pm
SiLo wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:47 am
The issue is that that flexible wings are banned in the regs, and non-linear suspension travel is not.
Correct, however about five seasons ago, Whiting made a clarification that suspension systems with a primary aerodynamic (rather than kinematics) purpose are not permitted. Suspension systems must be primarily for kinematics and tyre behaviour and not primarily for aerodynamic effect.

Whiting replied to Ferrari that he considered such a device would fall foul of regulation 3.15 (concerning whether a component or system is ‘wholly incidental to the main purpose of the suspension system’ or ‘have been contrived to directly affect the aerodynamic performance of the car’)
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arti ... 7-f1-title
That isn't even close to similar. That was about hydraulics, and using highly complex valving to change how and when the suspension worked, often times asymmetrically.

This can't be done anymore, as hydraulics have been banned in the suspension systems. Everyone is running spring based systems now.

I can't remember ever seeing a shot of the rear have spring, but here you can read an article about the switch over on the front in 2019.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/gary- ... 7/4988177/

and you can also see it on this years car.
viewtopic.php?p=989764#p989764


What they are doing now is dirt simple, even a bunch of highschool kids could set up a car suspension to do this.

Not to mention if this was somehow deemed illegal to appease the masses, then redbull and all the other high rakes cars have an even bigger issue. This concept is fundamental to getting high rake cars to be efficient.
Last edited by dans79 on Thu Oct 28, 2021 5:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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atanatizante
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 6:18 pm
The actual cylinders and lubrication system is not the issue if we go by Toto's hints. It's some small auxiliary parts that are critical for engine operation but unfortunately, you have to break the FIA seals to replace them. So when these parts are about to fail, even if the cylinders are crisp as biscuits you are screwed because you can't fix them without breaking the seals.

Toto hinted at something relating to the pneumatic system.
One question is revolving more and more until this day: what has been changed after Merc and all the customer's teams introduced the 3rd PU (bear in mind I said 3rd PU and not 3rd spec PU!) that almost all of them have issues now?

And after BOT has changed the 6th PU we should agree there is a red herring out there, coz I don`t understand why you folks couldn`t see the elephant in the room: at the first race of 2022 season, they should get homologate a PU that we`ll be frozen for 3 years! It`s so obvious that all the teams that are running Merc PU were convinced to see that it`s more important to play the long game and treat the second part of the season as a big test for the years to come ... at least for the factory team, I think that`s the case something that they did it back when they sacrificed 2013 season ...
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atanatizante
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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What were the reasons behind they took a step back between FP1 and the rest of the weekend and most of all which one has had the biggest effect on car`s performance:

1. Altering the ride height in order to cope better with the bumps. Thus was downforced reduced which led to a triple-negative effect: a lower top speed, then they couldn`t run their squat setup proper and finally more rear tyre sliding even though they compensate with a bigger rear wing setup for the race

2. Higher track temperatures affected them more than RB, something that affected them back at Bahrein

3. The need to run some conservative PU/ICE mappings
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atanatizante
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Is it me or it seems that this year they just swapped the teams, coz it resembles me with what RB did last year and a couple of years ago:
- correlation issues or underestimate of the 2021 regs (especially regarding the floor rule);
- unreliable engine/PU;
- lower top speed due to a weaker PU;
- forced and unforced driver errors;
- race strategic blunders;
and you could add here if you want ...

In return, the 2021 RB team seems like the Merc team from the last years: a conservative approach, having a reliable car, good strategic choices in the race, few drivers errors, powerful and reliable PU and other qualities that we`ve used to see over years ...
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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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atanatizante wrote:
Wed Oct 27, 2021 12:26 pm
Is it me or it seems that this year they just swapped the teams, coz it resembles me with what RB did last year and a couple of years ago:
- correlation issues or underestimate of the 2021 regs (especially regarding the floor rule);
- unreliable engine/PU;
- lower top speed due to a weaker PU;
- forced and unforced driver errors;
- race strategic blunders;
and you could add here if you want ...

In return, the 2021 RB team seems like the Merc team from the last years: a conservative approach, having a reliable car, good strategic choices in the race, few drivers errors, powerful and reliable PU and other qualities that we`ve used to see over years ...
I think 'driver errors' (and to an extent reliability and strategy decisions) are absolutely indicative of where the cars stand against each other. It's flipped 180 simply because RBR and drivers were having to push harder and take more risks in all aspects (driver, engine, strategy) to keep pace with Mercedes for the last few years, but now they are the pacesetters (regardless of what some of the less enlightened or purposely provocative forum members keep suggesting) which means Mercedes and drivers are having to push harder and take more risks than they'd like in all aspects to keep pace with Red Bull and do all the things Red Bull were historically forced to. It's pretty simple really.