2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Tvetovnato
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:40 am
Tvetovnato wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:35 am


Soo Christian… it wasn’t because of a flexing wing after all? All the time spent with the FIA to ban something that wasn’t even there must hurt now.
He's just doing what Wolff's detractors always accuse him of. Playing down their chances. His claims of straight line speed disparity have been analysed and deconstructed by more than one person since Brazil, haven't they?
Yeah but he was very quick to point out that after the FIA tested the wings in Qatar, Merc has dropped top speed, to prove that they were having an illegal car. But this disproves it.

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siskue2005
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Tvetovnato wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:36 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:40 am
Tvetovnato wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:35 am


Soo Christian… it wasn’t because of a flexing wing after all? All the time spent with the FIA to ban something that wasn’t even there must hurt now.
He's just doing what Wolff's detractors always accuse him of. Playing down their chances. His claims of straight line speed disparity have been analysed and deconstructed by more than one person since Brazil, haven't they?
Yeah but he was very quick to point out that after the FIA tested the wings in Qatar, Merc has dropped top speed, to prove that they were having an illegal car. But this disproves it.
Exactly!

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Jambier wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:23 am
WaikeCU wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:19 am
Jambier wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:16 am


Yes but it is understandable that RB and VER are very bitter to have lose this year, it was the ONLY chance for them, Honda gave everything for 2021, as well as RB and VER.

And at the end, this is still not enough, Merc/Ham domination still unbeaten.

Now 2022 should change that, but I don't see RB in the mix for victory next year
Maybe the reason they are so bitter, is because RB thought they had Merc on the ropes, so they shifted development focus to this season knowing there's 2 Championships they can win. But now reality hits (since Brazil) that Merc has an even more powerful car than pre-Brazil and that worries RB actually that this season is slipping away. The chance this season goes begging and they might not have a dominant car yet next season, just because of the main focus on this season.
Yes I totally agree, but Red Bull was really "light" on comitement thinking that the best team since 8 years will just no fighting.

- Yes RB was a bit better at the start
- They should have known that Mercedes will fight back, improve, and push really hard

Even with the Silverstone situation aside, if the Red Bull was good enough in the end of the championship VER would have been able to fight with Mercedes.
This is not the case, and they probably know that HONDA will not have pushed as hard for 2022 as they are retiring.
Hello Jambier. I notice that you have been painting a picture that the car that dominated qualifying in the last race is "not good enough."
Please stop this rhetoric. It only worsens the overall quality of discusions when we have a trove of data to reference.

RedBull were competitive enough to win with Max and even podium with Perez in Jeddah.

If Max got pole and was not out of sync with the tyre strategy I beleive he could have won convincingly. He was up by three tenths in Q before his accident and in the race he maintained pace on the mediums for about twenty laps before they died on him. Lewis could not get close in sector 1 because of dirty air. Only getting DRS after Max's tyres degraded. To make matters even better, Max would have not allowed Lewis to pass by any circumstances. Nothing uncompetitive about that.

In Quatar, it was yellow flags and a compromized set up, that screwed their qualifying, because RBR were quite fast in the race.

The RedBull is more than good enough to win in end.
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rickybobbyf1
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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So what are we looking at for this weekend, is there any word on potential to use the rear like in Brazil? Also any word on if there is any extra juice in the PU for this weekend vs last race?

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Jambier
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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rickybobbyf1 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:15 pm
So what are we looking at for this weekend, is there any word on potential to use the rear like in Brazil? Also any word on if there is any extra juice in the PU for this weekend vs last race?
With the new track and Mercedes speed you can expect an easy domination and title for Hamilton.

RB and VER knows it since Brazil, that's why they are so desperate. Then, it can also be not clean.
Answer on sunday

Jolle
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Jambier wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:30 pm
rickybobbyf1 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:15 pm
So what are we looking at for this weekend, is there any word on potential to use the rear like in Brazil? Also any word on if there is any extra juice in the PU for this weekend vs last race?
With the new track and Mercedes speed you can expect an easy domination and title for Hamilton.

RB and VER knows it since Brazil, that's why they are so desperate. Then, it can also be not clean.
Answer on sunday
As in the last race, RedBull are probably again going to go all-in on track position and see where it takes them. So, agressieve Q, pit early or don’t pit when there is a SC.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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(Above) Also Red Bull burned their second driver. There was never any intention to get the second driver up into points possibly in front of Hamilton, just to 'service' the second car.
Had the second driver been given full racing support the actual outcome of some races may have been different. Due to maybe the 'other car' still running Hamilton down and Merc reacting differently, or just being in a place to remove pit options.
It was from day one, all the eggs in one basket.
I saw two shooting stars last night, I wished on them but they were only satellites. Its wrong to wish on space hardware I wish, I wish...

Marty_Y
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Did bottas's engine that had the fuel issue get sent back to Brixworth? I haven't heard anything about it.

Marty_Y
Marty_Y
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... Npzx1.html

TECH TUESDAY: Red Bull or Mercedes – which car will suit Abu Dhabi better, as the title battle goes down to the wire?
Mark_Hughes
Special contributor

Mark Hughes

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Swifty
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Marty_Y wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:39 pm
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... Npzx1.html

TECH TUESDAY: Red Bull or Mercedes – which car will suit Abu Dhabi better, as the title battle goes down to the wire?
Mark_Hughes
Special contributor

Mark Hughes
The last time I did read Mr. Hughes' analysis, he pointed a progressive lack of performance from RBR starting in Brazil. Really interesting.

Here is some piece of it:
https://the-race.com/formula-1/mark-hug ... ll-claims/

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Morteza
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."~William Shakespeare

HungarianRacer
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Marty_Y wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 5:39 pm
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... Npzx1.html

TECH TUESDAY: Red Bull or Mercedes – which car will suit Abu Dhabi better, as the title battle goes down to the wire?
Mark_Hughes
Special contributor

Mark Hughes
Bla, bla, bla, "Red Bull is the DOWNFORCE MACHINE, always gains in the corners, struggles on the straights beacause of the extra drag and - to some extent - Honda power, Mercedes something, something, new floor regs, something, lower downforce ceiling, something, low drag, something, that Mercedes power tho..." (not the first article like this)...

This honestly makes a mockery out of the amazingly nuanced technological battle between the two top teams that are competing for the titles this year, and the tech-side of F1 in general, all in order to create an oversimplified, easily digestable, almost comic book-esque narrative for the casual fan where both "superheroes", or both "villain" and "hero" have their very distinct strenghts and weaknesses...

... How come Lewis was faster than anyone in the corners of Qatar, including Verstappen with the Monaco-spec rear wing mounted to his Red Bull (a track they definitively ruled to be RB-territory prior to the race weekend, based on the same notions expressed in this article), how could Bottas have the measure on the rainmaster Verstappen in changeable conditions in Turkey?

Raw aero downforce is still BY FAR the most significant performance-diffrentiator in F1, I find the idea that Red Bull could have a serious advantage in this area and still be decisively beatable for the Mercs on their days ridiculous, the only performance pattern we could clearly see forming this season is that the W12 is "more on it's nose" compared to it's competitor, meaning that it tends to perform better in front-limited bends, meanwhile rear-limited sections favour the RB16B, we can often observe this phenomena on the same single track even (in Jeddah for example, all those short, tight corners were much better for the Red Bull, however, I'm not sure if VER actually took the purple mini sector on his final Q3 attempt, but the Merc was definitely better in the long, banked T13 up to that point, the very slow first chicane and last corner also favoured the Silver-emblemed car all weekend, as they were outliers of the typical speed range), but EVEN THAT is a sweeping generalization, reality - as always in F1 - is way more nuanced, and I'm sure you could find plenty of exceptions to this "rule" if you looked hard enough...

Anyways, as to the topic of the Abu Dhabi race and track layout changes, the removal of the chicane and widening of corners - amongst making the circuit more drag-sensitive, obviously - actually eases stress on the rear axle and puts more duty on the front, I think that's the main upside for Mercedes.

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ringo
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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You also forget the drivers and their experience with setup. I think that is understated this year.
Hamilton and Bottas combined at Mercedes are vastly more experienced at setup than Max and Checo at redbull.
Hamilton = 9 years. Bottas = 5 years.
Max who was basically a rookie at redbull has 6 years with them. Checo has months.
A more experience pairing would also have gor more performance out of the RB16B and think that plays a large roll in the eb and flow over the season as it relates to race pace of the car.
It should be interesting what inputs Checo has next year. I am not sold on Max's technical abilities. They seem to get setup wrong quite often like hungary, silverstone, to name a few rsces this year. Especially in the sprint races where they dont have much time for the drivers to provide feedback.
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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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Jambier wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:30 pm
rickybobbyf1 wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:15 pm
So what are we looking at for this weekend, is there any word on potential to use the rear like in Brazil? Also any word on if there is any extra juice in the PU for this weekend vs last race?
With the new track and Mercedes speed you can expect an easy domination and title for Hamilton.

RB and VER knows it since Brazil, that's why they are so desperate. Then, it can also be not clean.
Answer on sunday
Where's this notion that if you're not as fast as your rival then you don't have to race 'clean' come from? Lacking a little speed is not a green light or a justification for anything like that.

Gillian
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Re: 2021 AMG Mercedes F1 Team

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ringo wrote:
Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:11 pm
You also forget the drivers and their experience with setup. I think that is understated this year.
Hamilton and Bottas combined at Mercedes are vastly more experienced at setup than Max and Checo at redbull.
Hamilton = 9 years. Bottas = 5 years.
Max who was basically a rookie at redbull has 6 years with them. Checo has months.
A more experience pairing would also have gor more performance out of the RB16B and think that plays a large roll in the eb and flow over the season as it relates to race pace of the car.
It should be interesting what inputs Checo has next year. I am not sold on Max's technical abilities. They seem to get setup wrong quite often like hungary, silverstone, to name a few rsces this year. Especially in the sprint races where they dont have much time for the drivers to provide feedback.
What logic is that? Having more years under your belt does not mean you automatically are better than someone who has less experience. You could do a shitty job for 20, 30 years, does not make you better than someone doing the same job for just a few years. I'm not saying either Hamilton or Verstappen is better at setting up their respective car, but you can't come to any meaningful conclusion just based on the amount of years spend at a team.